“Some of you may be willing to die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” but unironically
Edit: The user has since apologised https://hexbear.net/comment/3848285
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Hi Hexbear Dunkers,
Thank you for calling me out on the misinformed, small-minded, and frankly awful comments I had made about the Ukrainian conflict. I am significantly out of my element talking politics, especially eastern european politics.
I appreciate everyone who responded to me, even if they were just pointing out how ridiculous or foolish I am.
I’m going to engage in some self reflection and figure out my motives for making uneducated comments on the internet.
This is the most surprising thing I’ve read all week.
Just remember LiberalSocialist said the same thing
I think they did actually learn some things though.
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An inflammatory user that posted a bad take, apologized, then kept posting bad takes and being inflammatory - but now other users jumped to their defense, due to them apologising once. They would often copy-paste the same response to several users that made the mistake of taking the time to answer them in good faith. Due to this one of such responses became a meme “power dynamics”.
They were around for a few months and created a ton of strugglesessionsOk but they were 100% right in the power dynamics thread, people just got uppity because it was about Hasan
“AOC is doing what the unions wanted her to do” was way funnier anyway
“Which unions, LiberalSocalist?”
They kept repeating the same copy-pasted response to users that took the time to engage with their arguments in good faith. I have no idea wether they were right or wrong, because they entirely failed to respond to these users, instead just answering “power dynamics”.
Right or wrong, I think that should be mocked and critiquedWhat was “power dynamics” about? I mostly just remember the “AOC did what the unions wanted”/“rank and file”
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This would repeat every few days lol. Starting with the Russian kidnappers lie all the way to
“she did what the unions wanted her to do”
Good point. Still this post warmed my heart for a moment, so that’s something
Wow, I’m taken aback at a person actually coming onto the internet with an open mind. Good on you stranger, you’re kinda my hero.
It’s a pretty low bar so please save your admiration for someone who deserves it. Thanks for the encouraging words though.
It’s a low bar, but you’re still the first non-hexbear user I’ve seen do it since federation
There were nearly half a dozen! Including aport I did see.
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I’m very impressed, please do come back. I know we can be a lot to deal with, but you seem willing to learn and we have a lot of amazingly knowledgeable people who can help with that. Not me though, I’m lazy and unread
Top 10 anime redemption arcs
Thank you for this comment, it is very much appreciated. I apologise for the hostility in my responses. Though the idea that Ukrainians should willingly fight to the last in a lost cause is reprehensible to me, I could have found another better way to communicate this with you.
We could all do with some self-reflection, none of us are all-knowing and being confronted with the fact that one is misinformed can suck.
If you are interested in knowing more, or just interested in these discussions of news and politics in general, I’d recommend you to check out the hexbear news mega. Disagreement is welcome - Though the disagreement should be based on solid analysis. Plenty of people in that thread are very anti-russia, critical of Russia and supportive of Ukraine.You don’t have to agree with everything we say, but over here our discussions are rooted in trying to understand the current affairs of the world through their historical contexts and through material analysis (that’s what Marxism is all about, FYI - historical materialism) rather than buying into either side of the propaganda.
Came here to dunk amd this is the first thing i saw. We love to see this. Thank you for your honesty and I hope your self-reflection goes well.
Most of us are reformed libs who might have said something similiar to you had we not done some reevaluating of our recieved ideologies ar some point.
If you should want info on left wing perspectives or ideologies, the fine comrades on hexbear are as eager to help as we can be ruthless toward reactionary assertions.
Thanks for the welcome. I’m actually interested in media sources I should check out, specifically around the russia-ukraine conflict. History, analysis, commentary, etc. Anything I find from Google or YouTube (also Google 🤔) is couched in the same exact narrative.
Early on one of our members was keeping an update thread going with sources, that was very helpful, but at certain point it was dropped as the conflict kept going on. Id post this question in the askchapo community and I’m sure you’ll be innundated with sources lol, we’ve got some well informed comrades on there
I’m actually interested in media sources I should check out, specifically around the russia-ukraine conflict. History, analysis, commentary, etc. Anything I find from Google or YouTube (also Google 🤔) is couched in the same exact narrative.
Hohohoho… this is where the real fun begins. I present to you: The New Atlas
Come and join us in our latest news megathread. There are always plenty of links being posted to relevant topics that often don’t get much attention elsewhere.
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this is incredibly heartwarming
very based
🥰
Whoops I cut off their reply halfway thru.
I know you all hate Ukraine and think they should lay down and let Russia steamroll into Kiev and annex the whole country. But reality doesn’t always reflect your geopolitical wet dreams.
Geopolitics is when you think people shouldn’t die in a senseless war. It’s also somehow unrealistic
Yeah they should just submit to a genocidal invader! That’s WAY better than dying!
The only one cheering for a genocide of Ukrainians is you buddy. I think they shouldn’t die in a massive murder machine.
I have not cheered for anything. I regret this situation as much as anyone. I simply think that it’s plain silly to capitulate to a mafia state that kidnaps and “re-educates” your children, bombs your hospitals and schools, massacres your villages and whose leaders have openly questioned the need for a Ukranian identity. I also think it’s quite telling that these “peace appeals” are only made to Ukraine, even though it takes two to tango and Ukraine isn’t the one trespassing.
Well first off: if we’re just making shit up, you might as well get creative with it. The Russians are actually harvesting the Orgon energy of the Ukrainians in order to fuel a massive necromantic rite that will imbue a thousand golems with life, which will create an indestructible army of russian super soldiers.
Secondly: The Russians aren’t actually just bombing hospitals and murdering children, I don’t know where you get these claims from, but you might’ve confused Russia with the US and Ukraine with Iraq. Even if the Russians were copying the American Shock and Awe strategy of warfare, that still doesn’t really change anything does it? The Ukrainians still can’t win, the longer they fight, the worse their negotiating position will be. But you think they still should fight.
So just to be clear: You think the Ukrainians should continue to be killed by the Russian military as they attack the defensive positions? You want this war to continue until all Ukrainians are dead? I just want to be sure I understand your position, which seems to be that you want all the Ukrainians to die and then Russia can just pick the corpse of the country as it wants.Wow dude, this little number you’ve written here has so many logical fallacies and projections.
First of all, in no way am I defending the US invasions of the Middle East. Shit was bad and unnecessary.
Second of all, Russians are absolutely bombing hospitals and buildings full of children. They bombed a building in Mariupol that was used to house children and had that written on the roof. I’m also worried that they’re kidnapping children and robbing them of their Ukranian identity.
I think the war should continue for as long as Ukrainians are willing to fight. And not because I’m a cartoon villain that wants them all to die; I think any deal with Russia’s mafia leadership isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. The Russians have already stomped all over the Budapest memorandum that guaranteed Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty, why would they honor any other deal? At best the Russians would use the peacetime to resupply and rearm and try again later.
First of all, in no way am I defending the US invasions of the Middle East. Shit was bad and unnecessary.
The people who lied to you about those wars are telling you today’s war is totally a good one. Why would you believe them?
because russia is bad country
I don’t like being painted as someone who is told what to think. I do not think the Ukraine war is a “good one”, there are no “good” wars. I simply empathize more with the victims of imperialism and not the perpetrators of imperialism.
First of all, in no way am I defending the US invasions of the Middle East. Shit was bad and unnecessary.
I wasn’t saying you were. Improve your reading comprehension.
Second of all, Russians are absolutely bombing hospitals and buildings full of children. They bombed a building in Mariupol that was used to house children and had that written on the roof.
I wasn’t saying they weren’t, improve your reading comprehension. I was saying they weren’t doing these things on purpose.
I’m also worried that they’re kidnapping children and robbing them of their Ukranian identity.
I’m worried they might conscript the tooth fairy. As other users have already noted in this very thread, Russia is actually contacting families in order to reconnect them with their children.
I think the war should continue for as long as Ukrainians are willing to fight.
You mean the Ukrainians that are being forcibly conscripted and prevented from leaving the country so they can be forcibly conscripted? Seems like they don’t want to fight if you ask me.
The Russians have already stomped all over the Budapest memorandum that guaranteed Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty, why would they honor any other deal?
The Budapest memorandum??? You have got to be kidding me. A 30-year old document written shortly after the collapse of the USSR is somehow worthy of discussion? And it’s Russia that should be critiqued for breaching it? Euromaidan was a coup of the Ukrainian government led by far right militias funded by the United States Department, which then installed their own puppet government with their picked stooges. This government then continually shelled another russian-speaking part of Ukraine for 8 years (in spite of other treaties I might add). The Budapest memorandum was already trampled by the United States and then Ukraine itself.
Of course later treaties were written - like Minsk II, which was breached continually by Ukraine. Russia did seek diplomatic solutions before invading - which I think was an overreaction, but pretending it was unprovoked is silly.
Yet you think Ukraine should be worried Russia won’t follow treaties?
Of course I know what you will do, you will call me a bot or dismiss this as propaganda or drivel or whatever else. I also know what you won’t do: you wo t engage with the argument, and you won’t take the time to check it. You will dismiss it, because you are incapable of actually considering you might be misinformed.Edit: And since we’re pulling treaties out of our ass, what of that of NATO encroachment? The agreement that NATO would not incorporate ex Soviet countries? That which had been broken, and which was being waved around at the time of the invasion, that’s of course nothing right? Because that different because we’re the ones doing it.
I wasn’t saying they weren’t, improve your reading comprehension. I was saying they weren’t doing these things on purpose.
Wait a sec, Egon. How would you know that? If you don’t, why claim it? There have been a lot of attacks on civilian infrastructure and reckless attacks in civilian areas. I’m not quite convinced that russia is as innocent as you seem to believe.
I simply think that it’s plain silly to capitulate to a mafia state that kidnaps and “re-educates” your children, bombs your hospitals and schools, massacres your villages and whose leaders have openly questioned the need for [your] identity
so you support the struggle of the DPR and LPR against Ukraine?
I simply think that it’s plain silly to capitulate to a mafia state that kidnaps and “re-educates” your children, bombs your hospitals and schools, massacres your villages and whose leaders have openly questioned the need for an…identity.
sorry not totally clear, you talking about USA?
How did the US. get Putin to invade Ukraine? I’m trying to follow the logic but I keep getting stuck on that one.
Weird, I got this as a reply but then it was just gone:
So the implication is that the Russian invasion was (and continues to be?) a false flag?
Yeah, I’m still not seeing how the US got Putin to go along with this false flag, any more details?
They were engaging in a dang whataboutism
Its a cheeky joke that is wondering why the United States has the moral authority to hypocritically police another state for actions that the USA engages in regularly and yet does not receive a fraction of the pushback.
It’s also worth pointing out, however, that the USA has been stoking the flames of Russian-Ukraine conflict for decades beginning with Operation Aerodynamics.
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Don’t worry, the people of the Donbass and Crimea will never surrender to a bunch of western armed Ukrainian Nazis
define genocide
The intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part. Russia is doing that to Ukraine.
We have evidence of Ukraine banning the use of the Russian language, import of Russian books, Russian music, the banning of “pro-Russian” political parties. So we know Ukraine is engaging in what could be called cultural genocide. I’d love to see your evidence of actual genocide happening, though. I’m sure it’s real!
This is in no way equivalent hahaha. What kinda swill do they hand out in the IRA breakrooms these days?
Russia is invading the heartland of another distinct ethnicity and purging it. Ukraine is not doing that. It is simply clamping down on political liberties to ensure a stable war economy and political situation. This happens in every country that is forced to fight for it’s own existence.
and purging it
Please show evidence of this.
Kidnapping Ukranian children and forcibly adopting them into Russian families is genocide. It is an explicit attempt to erase Ukranian culture.
lmao the Ukrainian state was committing those actions before the invasion you dumb fuck, hence the civil war between the years 2014 and 2022, also trying to erase the identity of half your population is not an example of a wartime measure, it’s ethnic cleansing and the Ukrainians are pretty open about it
Hence why the separatist Russian-speaking regions (especially Crimea) should win the war and prevent the expansion of state backed neo-nazism
Perhaps the Ukrainians should concentrate the population that shows Russian sympathy into small campsYou know, to keep a better eye on them and to ensure the security of the Ukrainian identity against the perfidy of the Russian abhumansFunny that one of the Baltic states proposed exactly this.
Russia is invading the heartland of another distinct ethnicity and purging it.
Do you think Russia is running death camps? Where are these purges supposedly taking place?
the heartland of another distinct ethnicity
Kievan Rus exists
Russian and Ukranian are almost the same language, as different as modern English is from Shakespearian English
Why do white people try to create ethnic differences where none exist? Russians and Ukranians are visually / genetically / culturally pretty much identical. It’s like saying North Korea invaded South Korea to purge it of Koreans!
“not submitting to the ideological propaganda pushed by your oppressor is literally genocide”
So if chinese language is taught in your country and chinese publications are sold, this means your nation and culture has submitted to China?
Or English for that matter. The schools in Ukraine teach English and you can buy English books there
Well that depends, is China invading my country?
proof?
Well the Russians have been stealing Ukranian children and forcibly adopting them into Russian families to rob them of their national identity. They’ve been bombing civilian population centers and infrastructure. Putin put out this silly speech in which he claims that Ukrainians are just confused Russians and that’s why they need to come back into the fold (and just let their country and identity be destroyed). Lotsa proof there. I think the fact you haven’t found any and are still asking belies your biases (you’re probably another fucking Kremlin stooge).
They’ve been bombing civilian population centers and infrastructure
By this metric all war is genocide
So the western liberal believes that orphans should be left in a war zone?
Ukraine uses child soldiers and brag about it so it’s a wholesome thing now I guess.
Are you saying that there are only two options? You either leave them to die or indoctrinate them into Russian families? No in-between?
They’ve been bombing civilian population centers
this is the only part of ur comment that could feasibly be considered genocide and you didnt provide a source. and wikipedia isnt a reliable source
and Ukraine has been bombing civilian centers for the past decade. and that is well documented. maybe Ukraine is the real genocidal power
national identity
No just no. I lot of Ukrainians live in Russia or fled to russia. Russia would’ve started with them first if they wanted to do something that.
It’s a imperialist war at best started to secure a very strategically important location.
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I don’t think the people getting genocided care about dictionaries or philosophy.
For apparently being a genocide, this war has had less civilian casualties in the nearly year and a half it’s been on than there were in the first week of the US invading Iraq.
I’m just trying to understand all the conflicting stances that get bandied around. It’s a genocide, but genocide doesn’t matter, but it’s not a genocide because it hasn’t passed some death threshold? But it IS a genocide and it’s being done by Nazi Ukrainians against Ukrainians? Oh and Putin didn’t start the war, it was a false flag, but he’s continuing the war because he’s in on the false flag with the US, which started this as a proxy war, by convincing Putin to send Russians over the border to start the war, who were actually Ukraine Nazis.
I’m still not sure what’s going on in here.
Different people have different perspectives about the conflict? Different discussions have different topics and histories to bring up depending on the context?
Genocide obviously does matter (I’m not sure who you are insinuating says otherwise), the commenter was discussing how the concept of genocide has been watered down largely as a means to manufacture consent for western military operations. Some people claim that Ukraine was engaging in genocide against the russian minority esp. through violence (by far right military orgs) in the east of Ukraine and legislation that suppresses russian minorities.
If you are confused you should ask some actual questions (or use the search function, find some of the effort posts). You will get genuine answers if you ask in good faith.
How does one go about parsing perspectives from delusions in this community?
Ukrain will eventually give up, that’s a perspective.
Putin is participating in a joint false flag operation with the US., that is not a perspective.
It’s highly confusing.
Yeah you’re clearly a bit confused, probably because you’re mixing things people here might say with ridiculous strawmen that you dreamed up and pulled out of your ass.
What the fuck are you talking about? You’re just making up people to get mad at. If you have any integrity you engage with the arguments presented to you rather than making shit up and strawmanning. Who that you are discussing with in this thread is claiming the war was started due to a false flag? You must be willfully misinterpreting @robinn2@hexbear.net if you could somehow get their response to you to mean that they think genocide doesn’t matter. What’s this about a death threshold? Are you willfully being obtuse about the point made with relating this war to that in Iraq?
Why do you choose to be willfully obtuse? Why are you so focused on scoring points from some imagined audience rather than engaging with the argument presented to you? Are you this scared you might be misinformed?
True, they probably care more that the Azov goons that were doing it to them are hamburger now.
Interesting. So The Azov brigade invaded their own home country from across the border? Or are you insinuating that they were Russians all along? I’m confused.
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Didn’t you just post that genocide means nothing now? But now you’re posting a definition?
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Maybe there’s a bug in your client? PEBKAC?
Im sorry but the Donbass and crimeans are winning, so they are safe from the genociders. You don’t have to worry anymore.
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“it’s senseless to resist Putin, give your country to him and nobody will get hurt”
Serious mode: what is your ideal outcome of this conflict? I’m genuinely interested and willing (and hopefully able) to learn.
The ideal situation is the USSR is reinstated and Zelensky and Putin get sent to the gulag together.
o7 to that
The Slavaboos would immediately start crying either way
proletarian revolutions in Russia and Ukraine
Sure that would be ideal, but let’s talk about realistic and practical outcomes.
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you asked for an ideal outcome. and that is a very practical outcome.
but fine, ill play ur game. a realistic and practical outcome that i prefer would be Russia preventing Ukraine from entering NATO, limiting the ability for the global empire to conquer everything
if Putin never invaded, Ukraine wouldn’t be trying to join NATO
This is some strong “stop hitting yourself” energy
And if ukraine hadn’t violated rhe Minsk agreement Russia wouldn’t have done that.
Fun fact did you know there’s history before the last 2 years?
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Lol all signatories wiped their asses with minsk 2, while Putin played stupid by pretending he had nothing to do with LPR and DPR.
Once Putin realized he wasn’t going to get his pro-russian dickriders into Ukraine he literally invoked Godwin’s Law and invaded Ukraine because “muh nazis”.
I did know. That why I remember the Budapest Memorandum, in which Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty was guaranteed by Russia in exchange for their nukes. I wonder why y’all didn’t bring that up?
that’s funny bc this western source shows that in 2019, Ukraine amended their constitution to include a commitment to join NATO and the EU
Yeah, because in 2014, half their country was occupied by a foreign invader lol.
Oh no my neighbor is seeking alliances after I annexed their shit, how conniving of them!
I’ll flip that one back on you, what’s your realistic and practical outcome?
Implementation of the Minsk agreements and ceasefire in Donbass?
Referendums in the region to find out what the people in the occupied territories actually want?
Return of land to the collectives that had it ripped from them after the war heated up?
Or are you just jingoistic and care about the territorial holdings of nation states that don’t represent the will of their people?
@aport@programming.dev why won’t you answer this?
Because my answers won’t matter. I’m wholly uneducated on this topic and my point for being here was to act in bad faith and kick the beehive.
After reading so many good faith responses from the posters here, I rightfully feel like a dumbass so I’m tucking tail and trying to diffuse the situation.
I am literally the “joke’s on them I was only pretending” meme, and I’m really not proud of it.
Well, I can’t say I wholly believe you due to how you’ve behaved in this thread, but I really hope what you’re saying is true, and I appreciate the sentiment.
If you’re interested in more discussions like these, I’d recommend you to hang out in the hexbear news mega.
Disagreement is cherisehd, as long as you’re not being smug or condescending about it. We all learn something every day.
We both know the answer, but I hope they respond and show their whole ass. Fucking warmongering scum.
Ok so ukraine winnings off the table.
I guess in that case cede the territory Russia captured and stop sending thousands of conscripts to die for nothing.
Like snap my fingers ideal? What @ZoomeristLeninist@hexbear.net said.
What’s actually possible as part of negotiations? This would be (an) ideal outcome to me (but is still never going to happen):
my general ideal framework for a potential peace agreement is obnoxiously long so I put it in this spoiler
1) Ukraine agrees to commit to purging their military and government of white supremacists (and Russia agrees to do the same! Although I think you’ll find that they wont have nearly the same kind of problem). This includes any official or officer who has said things like Russians being “Asian” or some other nazi dogwhistle bs like that. Oh and also anyone who has glorified Bandera in anyway, they’ve got to go too (he is seriously irredeemable, please look up the history of the OUN and all the truly horrible white supremacist shit they did)2) Ukraine agrees to never attempt to join Nato again because of Russia’s valid security concerns. This is probably by far the most important measure, and it should be put into the agreement that any attempts to skirt around this will be met with military force.
3) After maybe a year to give everything time to settle down, all territory that Russia either fully or partially occupies is given a referendum on whether they want to be fully reintegrated into Ukraine, reintegrated but given autonomy, integrated into Russia but given autonomy, or fully integrated into Russia. As part of this Ukraine must also demilitarize to a certain extent so they don’t just start shelling any autonomous territories like they did before. Ukraine must also give up any claim to these territories that vote to integrate as part of Russia, including Crimea.
4) Russia agrees to help de-mine/de-bomb both Ukrainian territory and newly integrated Russian territory (NATO should also be a part of this particular part, but good luck getting them to actually help once the war is over)
5) Russia commits to a plan to help reunite families torn apart by the war, and both governments set up a plan to support war orphans so they don’t fall into human trafficking rings.
6) Russia helps Ukraine re-establish its peacetime agricultural production in return for certain economic trade agreements remaining favorable to Russia for a certain period of time.
7) Finally a joint commission to investigate war crimes committed by either of the 2 sides, and agreeing to abide by their findings.
(Final notes: As a part of #3 it will only be a ceasefire until certain things are completed, and would be broken by obvious signs of aggression etc. etc.)
I doubt any of this will actually happen because Ukraine’s government has been instructed by its western masters supplying it with all of its weaponry to not negotiate or else they will cut their weapon supply off, which will immediately weaken their position at any negotiating table with Russia.an even longer obnoxiously long explanation of my position
These probably seems overly favorable to Russia, and they are favorable towards them, because they’re well positioned to win any war of attrition, so they’re in no hurry to give favorable terms to Ukraine, but I also laid out some propositions that would benefit Ukraine. Honestly, a few of my propositions may even be too favorable to Ukraine for what the Russian government would be willing to accept. Also, they help Ukrainian proles, not bourgeois really, so the Ukrainian government may not even like those propositions that are supposed to be favorable towards Ukraine! Still, this is roughly what I would hope to see coming out of a peace agreement between the two.If you really can’t accept that these are the best terms Ukraine could get, I’ll just say they should have accepted the peace deal (and its much more favorable terms) a year ago before good ole Boris Johnson meddled and convinced them they could either win or get better terms later somehow. Every month that they wait their position gets weaker, and the terms will be more and more favorable to Russia. I would prefer that tens of thousands of more Ukrainians and Russians not die just for Russia to have better terms for Ukraine’s inevitable surrender, so ideally they should negotiate now, not then. The only way the tide of this war turns is if NATO actually gets directly involved, and I would really hope that we don’t risk nuclear annihilation over a war between two bourgeois-led states.
We could argue about the inevitability of Ukraine’s defeat, I guess, but I seriously doubt either of us are well educated on military affairs so that would be a pointless argument, I’m pretty much just having to go based off of what people I trust say in this field and do what little research I can to make sure they’re not just completely making something up.
My final statement is that I’ve seen convincing arguments that even if Zelensky tried to negotiate at this point, the fascists he’s surrounded himself with would just kill him and take power to keep the war going, so this is all could just be useless speculating anyways.
GOOD post
Ah you’re too kind, I think I ramble a bit much when I try to write out effort posts which is why I used the spoilers to make it easier to ignore my rambling haha
Nah it was great and well thought out
Ah thank you again then
♥️
it’s senseless to resist Putin, give your country to him and nobody will get hurt.
If you take a step back from your regularly scheduled CNNBBCMSNB propaganda and actually look at the facts of the situation, then you’d see that yes it is in fact senseless. You’d also see that Putin isn’t actually claiming the entirety of Ukraine - The Russian government is claiming the region’s that had been shelled by Ukraine since 2014 in breach of the Minsk II treaty. Russia has since added additional demands as Ukraines bargaining position has weakened during the war. It has weakened because Ukraine is losing, and it is continuing to lose.
It is senseless because Ukraine can’t win. Right now the long-propagandised glorious Ukrainian counteroffensive can’t even break the first of the three defensive lines. Thousands have died, thousands more are dying, and they are no step closer to accomplishing the goals of the counteroffensive. Even in a far off fantasy land where some of the goals would be accomplished, they’d come after thousands more dead Ukrainians. And for what? Russia has hundreds of thousands in reserve, a wealth of equipment stockpiled. There are no significant gains to be made, and every day as more Ukrainians die, their bargaining position gets worse.
Me thinking they should bargain from as strong a position as possible is somehow less supportive of Ukraine than yours that posits they should all just throw themselves to their deaths, and then let Russia pick the corpse of the country as it wants.Serious mode: what is your ideal outcome of this conflict? I’m genuinely interested and willing (and hopefully able) to learn.
Since we’re being Serious™ let’s drop the idealism which permeates liberal discussion of this war. Let’s instead be realistic.
Ukraine should negotiate for a peace immediately, with as good terms as it can get, and take it. That peace will probably involve ceding the autonomous regions, maybe also the major cities that were captured in the latest russian offensive as well. It will also include the decoupling of the azov-battalion and other Neo-nazi related officials and institutions from Ukraine and probably a promise of no NATO membership.
That’s what I would imagine the current peace treaty would result in. Do I think it’s “fair” or “moral” or whatever? No not really, but it’s not gonna get any better, and at least thousands can go home and be with their families instead of bleeding to death after stepping on a mine.Is this a Chamberlain impression? You think Russia is going to stop? Putin is an imperialist megalomaniac who wants fealty and submission.
If Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Putin will take it as explicit approval of his imperialist expansion on behalf of the entire West. There might be months to a year of tenuous peace then he’ll march onward until his puppet is sitting in Kyiv and Ukranians are speaking Russian.
Ahahaha yes of course appeasement is when you acknowledge that either they can get a decent treaty now, or unconditionally surrender after their entire able bodied population has died.
Why do you think Russia would want to annex the entirety of Ukraine? Because Putin is evil? Because they’re just horrible villains over there, for our GI Joe heroes to fight the good fight against?
Be real. Be realistic. Putin is a leader of a country with many factions. He’s not so e irrational James Bond Saturday Morning BreakFast Cereal Cobra Commander, doing stuff because he hates the world or whatever, if he were he wouldn’t have been stable enough to hold power for this long. If he were Prigozhin would actually have had support for his coup.
What would Russia gain from occupying the entirety of Ukraine? Massive unrest, constant resistance, territorial issues en masse. What base do you have to assume that the Russian government would want this?It’s funny how appeasement is the word liberals drool over. It is their ONLY historical anecdote and used to defend opposing any movement towards peace, ag Korea. The reality is Chamberlain’s big crime was no the act of appeasement, it was knowingly stringing along the French and Soviets only to bail officially when there was no means of changing plans for the USSR and Czechoslovakia.
Beyond that the comparison also doesn’t work because peace talks had occurred multiple times without excluding relevant parties. Minsk was a thing that happened.
Yeah it’s kinda wild how it’s just the same tired shit year after year. They know one book, one failure of a western leader, and one fallacy in discussions
It’s just really useful. We want to do something. Remember the time we didn’t do something?
You are still operating on the assumption that Russia can somehow win this war? Despite its best soldiers and equipment already being spent while the Ukies bathe in the latest NATO gear? Sure, they may be having trouble with their counteroffensive, but that don’t mean that the Russians can mount one of their own. The best case scenario for Russia is a ceasefire and a North/South Korea situation, with a backwards, authoritarian North (Russia) and a prosperous, democratic South (Ukraine).
Democracy is when you have streets named after literal fascists leading to the sites of the Holocaust.
Also that equipment is not winning Ukraine any territory back. That’s like saying the Soviets couldn’t win WW2 in late 1944 because Germany was developing a jet fighter at that time.
The assumption? Russia is winning, where are you getting your news from, reddit?
Despite its best soldiers and equipment already being spent.
:doubt: I thought the narrative was that Russia had thrown poorly equipped penal battalions at the Ukrainians, and it is only just now that we’re seeing a change in their troops and equipment? Now it apparently reversed? They started off with well-equpped and trained soldiers?
Ukies bathe in the latest NATO gear?
Ah yes the wunderwaffe. The leopards that are getting owned by unique technology like “landmines” will surely turn the war in Ukraines favour. Do you play a lot of HOI IV? You must, because it seems you have a completely wrong understanding of how equipping works. Do you think you just click the “upgrade” button? They’re not trained to use the myriad of different equipment they’re receiving, and even when they can use it, they’re trained with NATO doctrine, which laughably assumes constant air superiority. Of course the equipment is better than russias, because uhh… Because russias is worse! The T-72s have no chance against the leopard! The F16s are coming any day now, and the will definitely own the Russian jets!
Sure, they may be having trouble with their counteroffensive.
That’s putting it mildly.
that don’t mean that the Russians can mount one of their own.
Not constantly attacking doesn’t mean you’re somehow the losing side. Russia controls the territory it wants to claim and then some. It is in a war of attrition against Ukraine and NATO equipment, and you have far less casualties on the defensive. Why would Russia abandon a strong position, when Ukraine is throwing itself into the meatgrinder?
The best case scenario for Russia is a ceasefire and a North/South Korea situation, with a backwards, authoritarian North (Russia) and a prosperous, democratic South (Ukraine).
okay this must be a bit. You got me, thanks for making me laugh. I should’ve read to the end before responding, sorry for taking you so seriouslyRemind me, how was the South doing when the DMZ was designated?
You are still operating on the assumption that Russia can somehow win this war?
Yeah, it’s so stupid to believe this, I mean, look at who’s doing all the conscriptions. Oh. Fuck. Uh, okay, look who has doesn’t have a functional air force and is chronically short on ammunition, as admitted by the actual president of the actual United States (who, I hope you agree, is not a puppet of Putin). Hm. Well, look at all the territory that Russia still has in Ukraine! They must be just down a few villages by now considering that Russia is completely out of missiles, is fighting with shovels, is out of artillery, has no ammo, their soldiers are completely demoralized and also all dead! Fuck. Shit.
Look, if Russia’s army is so awful, so utterly and completely imcompetent, so out of ammunition, so demoralized, and Ukraine still can’t make a sizable dent in their defences after two months, then holy shit, Ukraine’s army must be fucking terrible. Like, holy shit it must be bad.
The people having lost are the people being dead, the families separated and people traumatized. Like in all wars. The victims are mostly the working class.
That said, there are plenty of ways to spin winning and losing for both Ukraine and Russia. Of course for NATO this war war somewhat good, but there can be a couple of things be found that are bad, will not focus on that though.
Having secured the Krim, having secured a Krim land bridge, having ensured a close alignment of Donbas and Luhansk, having secured control over the Sea of Azov and in addition relevant parts of the North Western section of the Black Sea (and with that ensured access to gas and other resources while denying it to Ukraine), having the river as border in the South between the occupied territories and Ukraine, with mined and defended territory near Donetsk Oblast reduced the open flank of Russia (and its Krim) somewhat. This means millions of people who are effectively living on territory controlled by Russia. This also means a propaganda victory for Putin and thus support from some circles of nationalist society in Russia (for which the education in military basics adds something, too).
Hard to call all those things failures. That said during a war of attrition and position war is slow till it isn’t anymore. I am not on the side of Russia, but I can see how stuff could be spun.
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It’s honestly really insulting how you just completely ignore entire paragraphs someone spent time writing for you after saying you were interested and willing to learn.
I am uneducated on this topic and also arguing in bad faith
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Whoa
Gotta admit I respect the honestyprops for being willing to admit this. it takes guts. now do the reading and educate yourself
we already knew that from the username
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Remind me, where were Russian forces marching in February last year? It was some city… A capital even. Started with a K.
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I think it had more do to with 10,000 dead Russian soldiers
Damn this is like, triple-distilled Kremlin Copium Reserve right here. Putin is an entirely rational actor? Lmfao! Is that why he picked a fight with a country a quarter the size of his and got a black eye? Is that why he flip-flopped in the Budapest memorandum? Is that why he blew up Priggy and pals for everyone to see?
Also, what kinda American provocations are you talking about? Was it the billions in IMF money Russia got in the 90s? That was provocative for sure. Or is it when they sent a spy to infiltrate your ruling party? Oh wait, Butina was Russian, it was the other way around, nevermind.
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Schroedinger’s Russia: simultaneously on the brink of defeat and collapse, but also this close to taking over all of Europe if we dont send $80 billion more dollars to some nazis right now.
The new border between Russia and Ukraine will be defined by the crater caused by the impact of a giant meteor which gives both parties something more pressing to deal with.
Please, step away from the lathe
Hear me out, I’m going somewhere with this
Okay, but only because of The Crying of Lot 49
Ayy it’s not Gravity’s Rainbow for a change.
Not speaking for everyone here but an ideal outcome would be:
- Peace treaty
- Russia gets to keep crimea because there is 0 chance that Russians will give up Crimea. Also Ukraine can no longer try to start a drought there. The donbass gets an option to stay in Ukraine with actual guarantee that Ukraine will not try to bomb them again, independence or joining Russia depending on vote.
- The other two oblasts go back to Ukraine as long as Ukraine doesn’t prosecute anyone for “collaboration” like they did with garbage collectors and other civil servants in Kherson.
- Removal of Nazis from government positions in Ukraine. Destruction of Nazi paramilitaries. Removing ban from Socialism and banning nazism instead.
- Putin dies or something and hopefully Russia doesn’t collapse.
Further outcomes would be that Ukraine doesn’t pay back the loans to the west because they simply can’t afford to. I have no idea how they’ll manage post war even if they win or lose. Worker rights in Ukraine have been demolished and the country has been sold to Blackrock and Co… And with Ukraine sending their working age population to the meat grinder, the future becomes bleaker every day.
Thanks for your response. I don’t entirely agree with all of your points but I can respect the thought you’ve put into the situation.
No problem. It’s Always nice to have someone willing to participate in open minded discussion.
Hey just a heads up that lib you complimented on having a nice discussion just told me I was huffing copium for saying Russia was winning because they’ve taken and held all the territory they stated they wanted to before the war
The wishes of the people of Crimea and the Donbass are respected and neo-nazism in Ukraine is destroyed, that would be a good start
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Since we’re talking about ideal outcomes, why wouldn’t the ideal outcome be for the borders to go back to pre-2014 Crimea annexation?
Nobody living in Crimea wants it to be part of Ukraine
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Ah so I missed that you corrected yourself to say you were actually listing realistic outcomes, not ideal ones.
Realistically, do you see Ukraine accepting any of these outcomes?
Why yes, poor people in another country should die so I can sound like a smart wargame strategist on my forums.
HoI IV was a mistake and considered by many historians to be a bad idea
In the beginning there were no wargames. Then the Prussians invented the kriegsspiel. This has since been criticized by many, and is widely considered to have been a bad idea.
I really appreciate this joke. Thanks.
You are very welcome
diplomacy is a pretty good war game. It’s a game of ww1 and the key feature is that it’s basically impossible for anyone to win
e: this was the wrong thread for this, but it still kinda works
It was perfect for this. What was the other thread it was to be used for?
duty and obligation to try
Anybody that says this should be first in line in the Reddit battalion
A duty and an obligation to whom exactly?
Reddit
If you were a grunt in Lord of the Rings and your opponent was the orcish horde and Gandalf was saying this to you after having demonstrated his righteous power, there might be an argument because you live in a world where anybody with a baby brain can tell the good guys from the bad guys. You were born from a mother and your opponent was carved out of mud ugly and feral. It’d suck, but it’s like fuck it, we ball.
If you’re a member of a capitalist society being antagonized by a member of another capitalist society so that treat manufacturers can uphold NFT copyrights 13% more effectively, then there’s 110% less duty.
If you were a grunt in Lord of the Rings and your opponent was the orcish horde and Gandalf was saying this to you after having demonstrated his righteous power, there might be an argument because you live in a world where anybody with a baby brain can tell the good guys from the bad guys. You were born from a mother and your opponent was carved out of mud ugly and feral. It’d suck, but it’s like fuck it, we ball.
Despite everything, this is somehow also the exact argument the op would use to justify more Ukrainians dying on mass.
Oh yeah, I guess I didn’t circle back to it, but I agree. If bombastic violence is your approach, you probably think your opponents are an orcish horde.
This could’ve literally been German propaganda in WW1
All these ostensible Ukraine supporters seem way more jazzed about killing Ukrainians than the ostensible Russia supporters. Like, my dude, if the national identity starts to be worth more to you than the people who claim it maybe your priorities are wack. Dulce et Decorum Est.
I’ll upvote every Wilfred Owen poem to infinity.
He goes hard.
Libs straight up just manifesting 40K lore into the real world, these people are sick
Libs make Field Marshal Haig look like a competent and compassionate strategist
at least Haig spent a lifetime of upperclass conditioning to not consider the lower classes that made up the soldiery to be full people what’s this guy’s excuse
What’s this guy’s excuse?
Reddit propably
My my my, there sure is a lot of lemm.ee trolls, paid pentagon shills and bots brigading this post.
Surely that can be the only explanation for people disagreeing with me!Sounds like we’ve got a new volunteer for the AFU! Get on that plane, soldier! Duty and obligation!
They’re still accepting foreign Nazis, sorry mercenaries, right? Whats this dweeb still doing on the internet?
Friends, if your take on any real life conflict sounds exactly like an Imperial Guard Commissar from Warhammer 40K, you should reassess your take.
This isn’t the fucking Death Korps of Krieg
Edit: shit someone already made that reference
Yeah and they’re fighting ORKZ. Russians are only winning because they’re RED so they’re just TOO FAST
Liberals expect their Adults In The Room calculations to consistently show smug easy victories, but then the WAAAAAGH field of mines and combined arms happens.
We’ve spent centuries making vodka jokes like absolute fools when it turns out it makes you redder the whole time!
hell yeah let’s die for not even lines on a map, I don’t know anything about world war one or the antiwar antinationalist attitudes developed because of it
The wine cave warriors talking about duty and obligation while clinking wine glasses about the latest exciting episode of death and slaughter that they consume like real-life Prestige TV.
🍷 🍷 
