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  • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.mlOP
    4918·
    3 months ago

    looks like western sponsors of the war might have had enough of Zelensky

    It is time for sober reflection. The Ukrainian people deserve leadership focused on practical, achievable objectives, not on grandstanding gestures. While courage and defiance are admirable, they must be tempered with strategic wisdom. The path to victory lies not in symbolic acts of defiance, but in the methodical, relentless pursuit of territorial liberation.

    • the_wise_wolf@feddit.org
      265·
      3 months ago

      The path to victory lies not in symbolic acts of defiance, but in the methodical, relentless pursuit of territorial liberation.

      That’s just stupid. Are they really suggesting Ukraine should focus solely on grinding through fortified Russian defenses? War is more complicated than “just liberate the occupied territory”. And while it’s true that this counteroffensive has its risks. Everything they do or don’t do has its risks.

      • freagle@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
        191·
        3 months ago

        They’re suggesting that everything is Zelensky’s fault so they can blame him, turn public opinion against him (remember how much everyone thought he was a hero last year), so that when they coup/assassinate him people won’t mind.

      • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
        181·
        3 months ago

        I think they are just meant Ukraine should stick to the original strategy of prolonging the war no matter what. It’s lost either way, but costly losses will finish it faster than daily grind as usual.

        • the_wise_wolf@feddit.org
          1017·
          3 months ago

          I’m not sure how to understand your comment. Currently neither side is winning or loosing. Which is why neither side is willing to give up. The west needs to decide if they want to keep it that way, or give Ukraine enough support so they can finish the job “fast”.

            • the_wise_wolf@feddit.org
              716·
              3 months ago

              Ukraine needs a steady supply of modern weapons and the freedom to use them on Russian territory. That way they can continue dismantling the Russian military and minimize casualties. The Russians are pulling a lot of equipment from storage and are refurbishing it. But those storages won’t last forever. Also, Russia may have a large population (so does Ukraine), but pretty much everybody willing to fight is already fighting. Also economic hardships are only going to increase. In other words, political instability in Russia is increasing and with it Putin’s ability to mobilize troops. Don’t forget, Putin can pull out at any time without loosing his power. For Ukraine it’s about survival.

              • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
                152·
                3 months ago

                It seems for every issue in Russia you pose, Ukraine is faring worse-off. Ukraine is grabbing people off the streets, the majority of die-hard loyalists signed up when the war started.

                I don’t see how Ukraine wins by “using modern weapons on Russian Territory.”

                • the_wise_wolf@feddit.org
                  814·
                  3 months ago

                  Yes, Ukraine faces a lot of the same problems. That’s why it needs international help. The difference is that even if Ukranians don’t want to fight. At least they have a good reason to.

                  I’m not saying that victory will be easy. All I’m saying is that it’s very much possible.

      • MarxMadness@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
        164·
        3 months ago

        That’s just stupid. Are they really suggesting Ukraine should focus solely on grinding through fortified Russian defenses?

        That’s clearly a losing strategy, too, but the “we’ll fight them to the last Ukranian” crowd is still too far from reality to admit it.

        The best decision for the Ukranian people is to negotiate an end to the war as soon as possible, which means accepting that when you are losing a war the peace isn’t going to involve crazy shit like getting more territory than you started with (Crimea). They’ve lost, and they can come to terms with it now or do so later after a bunch more Ukranians die only get a worse outcome.

        The reason the Ukranian government isn’t doing that is because their NATO puppetmasters don’t give a shit about the casualties of their proxies – they just want to bleed Russia as much as possible. So without the option to negotiate, and with the impossibility of winning on the main front, they have to try Hail Mary gambits like the Kursk invasion.

  • RBG@discuss.tchncs.de
    4021·
    3 months ago

    A prolonged incursion into Russia could escalate the conflict, drawing in other nations and potentially leading to a catastrophic global confrontation.

    Bit of a joke to write this, isn’t it. The one country that is escalating things is Russia. They could have always moved back and have given up and this would all be over. Maybe Ukraine would leave the Russian territory if Russia leaves Ukrainian territory? Not sure that’s on the table.

    Edit: coming back to all the reactions. Just wow, hilarious.

    Edit2: haha, they even come back to monitor edits. Fun times.

      • InvertedParallax
        512·
        3 months ago

        It’s their country.

        Russia could surrender Moscow too.

        Would actually turn out better for Russians, liberate them from their gangster kakistocracy.

        • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.mlEnglish
          62·
          3 months ago

          It’s their country.

          No it isn’t. It belongs to the US. If it were their country they would have been allowed to have a democratic election. They weren’t.

          • InvertedParallax
            25·
            3 months ago

            What does it tell you that they hate Russia so much (everyone does), that they’re happy to run to Russia’s worst enemy?

            None of this matters, Russia won’t be a country in 10-15 years anyway, between us supporting all their internal ethnic groups which will break away into their own “stans” and otherwise arming everyone who hates them, they’ll be shattered just like in the 90s, and this time we’ll keep them that way.

            We should give Ukraine their nukes back just so they don’t have to suffer through this period.

            • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.mlEnglish
              4·
              3 months ago

              What does it tell you that they hate Russia so much (everyone does), that they’re happy to run to Russia’s worst enemy?

              They didn’t hate Russia. They voted to align with Russia as opposed to the IMF/WB deal with the west. But since Ukraine belongs to the west, they weren’t allowed to have a democratic election. You should know about a subject before you spout off about it.

              lol @ all the delusional genocidal dumb shit

              • InvertedParallax
                12·
                3 months ago

                They had one, they elected zelensky.

                It’s not genocide, freeing all those poor, oppressed minorities under the Russian Empire.

                It’s liberation, the freedom they deserve.

                You must be too young to remember when gorbechev offered Ukraine to stay in the new federation and they clearly said no.

                Who in their right mind would voluntarily want to be Russian?

                Most countries have something in their past to be proud of, Russia just has humiliation after humiliation after humiliation, all self_inflicted.

                Or inflicted on others, like the holodomor or all the purges.

                But seriously though, we owe them. They managed to unite the west with their invasion, they grew NATO and made Xi give up on taking Taiwan. Without their help we might have actually had to do something.

                Russia as an enemy is the greatest ally anyone can have.

                • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.mlEnglish
                  3·
                  3 months ago

                  They had one, they elected zelensky.

                  They elected Yanukovych. Then the west performed a coup on them. Then the definition of “they” changed when you and your nazi friends started doing ethnic cleansing in the east against the people who made up the majority of that election. After that calling anything later an ‘election’ is trash.

                  You come off like a legit psycho.

    • freagle@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
      358·
      3 months ago

      Do you know what escalation means? Russia hasn’t escalated shit since it launched the invasion. Each thing Russia has done since the invasion is part of the invasion. They haven’t attacked other nations, they haven’t embargoed or disrupted trade beyond their own borders, they haven’t introduced new weapons platforms, they haven’t made attempts to decapitate Ukrainian leadership.

      Ukraine and the West are escalating. They’ve been escalating literally since the end of the Cold War. Each country on the border of Russia that got NATO nuclear sites was an escalation. Each color revolution was an escalation. Each sanction was an escalation. Each call for a no fly zone was an escalation. Each new weapons platform sent to Ukraine was an escalation. Each use of Western military intelligence to coordinate Ukrainian strikes was an escalation. Each time Ukraine struck civilian infrastructure inside Russia was an escalation.

      You are using words you hear people say but you don’t understand them.

      Russia has had one demand since the USSR was dismantled - no NATO operations in Ukraine. When the USA escalated and supported the coup in 2014, Russia escalated and took Crimea. When the fascists in Ukraine escalated and sent paramilitary forces to terrorize and mass murder ethnic Russians, Russia escalated with paramilitary of its own in the region. When Ukraine escalated by pursuing NATO operations in its country and NATO made noise like it might, like when Trump escalated and approved the first weapons shipment to Ukraine in US history, Russia escalated by invading the border region. That’s all of Russia’s escalatory moves - 1 every 5 years or so. It’s Ukraine and the West that have escalated since then. Sanctioning Russia was an escalation. Seizing Russian assets in violation of international law was an escalation. Sending lethal aid each year totalling more than the entire Russian military budget was an escalation. Sending Western intelligence, trainers, and even combatants to harm Russia are all escalatory moves.

    • Black_Mald_Futures [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
      4114·
      3 months ago

      The one country that is escalating things is Russia. They could have always moved back and have given up and this would all be over.

      Are you fucking serious

      What do you call expanding NATO? You think that isn’t escalation because, what, “it’s a defensive pact”? You really don’t see how a country like Russia could view an encirclement of “defensive” pacts as aggressive, when it has constantly stated that Ukraine joining NATO is a red line?

      You don’t think NATO discussing sending NUKES TO UKRAINE, putting them within MINUTES OF MOSCOW, is in any way an escalation?

      What the FUCK is wrong with you fucking people

      NATO could have simply not attempted to expand, Ukraine could have simply honored the Minsk agreement and stopped genociding Russians in the Donbas, but you don’t say shit like that, you think it’s entirely on Russia. Brainwashed ass motherfucker

      • MarxMadness@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
        414·
        3 months ago

        “The winning side could simply surrender and give everything back”

        I am a geopolitical mastermind

          • Black_Mald_Futures [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
            243·
            3 months ago

            I know personally I think the winning side is the one that’s lost all important strategic territory, has lost most of its male population, literally has to kidnap people to conscript them, and has recently spent buckets of its own blood taking territory that not only doesn’t matter but would be impossible to hold if they wanted to

            #winning

    • davel [he/him]@lemmy.mlEnglish
      317·
      3 months ago
    • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      256·
      3 months ago

      Edit: coming back to all the reactions. Just wow, hilarious.

      It’s okay to admit you’re incapable of grappling with reality and prefer to stay inside your NATO mind palace

    • Kumikommunism [they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      239·
      3 months ago

      The one country that is escalating things is Russia.

      This war is literally only happening because of the US and the other countries in NATO. Don’t think you should be writing such pithy statements if your understanding of the war is equivalent to a Star Wars plotline.

      • FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        191·
        3 months ago

        At least in Star Wars they explain the context with the scroll at the start of the movie, libs think that Ukraine literally popped into existence in 2022.

      • blarth@thelemmy.club
        1514·
        3 months ago

        What? Ukrainians are dying to Russian aggression in Ukraine. What twisted world are you people living in?

        • cosecantphi [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
          342·
          3 months ago

          Maybe don’t go around making inflammatory geopolitical comments in public if you only just started paying attention to this conflict in 2022

          • blarth@thelemmy.club
            316·
            3 months ago

            Nah, I’ve been paying attention to the Russian aggression in Ukraine for much longer that that.

            • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              321·
              3 months ago

              Here’s some fun reading for you, directly from the CIA’s website, documents from the CIA’s project to move literal Nazis to Ukraine in the postwar era to try to build up a nationalist, Nazi movement there to cause trouble in the USSR: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/AERODYNAMIC VOL. 1_0113.pdf

              they never fuckin stopped, Ukraine is lousy with Nazis, and you are a Nazi by association

              • BeamBrain [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                8·
                3 months ago

                Funny how on the rare occasion they respond to posts like this one, it’s to make a snide comment about Russian bots

                sartre-pipe “If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

              • anachronist@midwest.socialEnglish
                34·
                3 months ago

                Yeah a thing the CIA did in 1953 definitely explains modern Ukrainian politics. Clearly they planted sleepers that had children who had children (real potent Nazi sperm) that were activated 60 years later to phony up the Euromaden uprising.

                • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.mlEnglish
                  111·
                  3 months ago

                  Yeah a thing the CIA did in 1953 definitely explains modern Ukrainian politics.

                  Saying this with dripping irony makes you look so fucking stupid holy shit

                  Imagine. Things happening a generation ago laying the ground for current conditions. Preposterous.

            • Black_Mald_Futures [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
              291·
              3 months ago

              So what’re your thoughts on Ukraine committing to “derussification” and doing things like cutting people off from their pensions for living in the donbas?

              P.s. “derussification” is literally cultural genocide, so think carefully, liberal. You care about the Uighurs, right?

              • anachronist@midwest.socialEnglish
                13·
                3 months ago

                Yeah and that Malaysian airliner shot itself down because there were no Russians in Donbass, just some tourists!

                • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  5·
                  3 months ago

                  Even the claim that it was a Russian BUK isn’t that Russians shot it down. The claim is that Donbas partisans did it. You don’t even understand the claims you’re pretending to believe. Grow up.

            • cosecantphi [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              262·
              3 months ago

              At what point did this become Russia’s aggression? Certainly after the fall of the Soviet Union by western backed coup (before which Ukraine and Russia were literally the same country). Did Russia’s aggression start when NATO aggressively expanded into the former Eastern bloc after promising not to as a major condition of the USSR’s dissolution? How about when Russia subjected its own population to devastating austerity, resulting in untold death and destruction, all in a genuine effort to liberalize and assimilate into NATO themselves? Was that Russia being too aggressive? Or did Russia’s aggression not start until after the west continued to wage economic warfare anyway, demonstrating NATO never had any intention to let Russia coexist peacefully on the world stage regardless? How aggressive was it of Russia when the west helped to orchestrate the 2014 Maidan coup in Ukraine to install a rabidly anti-Russian fascist government on one of Russia’s largest land borders? I guess Russia was being too aggressive when Ukraine decided to ban the Russian language and shell Russian speaking civilians in Eastern Ukraine for literally years and years in violation of the Minsk agreements, resulting in massive pro-Russian separatist movements forming to fight off Banderite pogroms.

              I think I get it now, after exhausting literally all available diplomatic avenues to peace, aggressive Russia started this conflict out of nowhere by supporting the cause of the breakaway republics invading poor innocent Ukraine, wow can’t believe a country would go to war like this at the drop of a hat! Irrational aggressive Russia should just take their troops home and surrender all territory back to Ukraine, a country losing a war so badly it’s on the verge of collapse.

              • blarth@thelemmy.club
                210·
                3 months ago

                By your logic, I guess it’s time to eradicate the Jewish population from Israel and hand it back to Palestine, and hey, why not go back even further? Americans should be forced to move back to their countries of origin and hand all lands back to native Americans. Where does this logic lead to? Are you really advocating for wars to break out all over the world over historical deeds? Ukraine has been independent for a very long time. Why did Russia suddenly decide it’s their territory again? Is it about the territory or the supposed Nazis? Can you pro Russia propagandists make up your minds about what exactly the reason for the invasion is?

        • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
          354·
          3 months ago

          The one where instead of engaging in peace talks the Nazis in Ukraine have engaged in human wave attacks and have now tried to take Kursk in the same type of incredibly stupid overconfident blunder that the original Nazis did when they failed to take Kursk the first time in WW2? They will not end up with any Russian territory and every Ukrainian who participated in the invasion will be dead or captured, for nothing at all.

          • Skua@kbin.earth
            98·
            3 months ago

            Capturing Russian conscripts and territory is a useful card in negotiations, whether that is for a ceasefire or just a prisoner swap. Bringing the war into Russian territory also makes it more difficult for the Russian government to sell to the population

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
              71·
              3 months ago

              So far, conditions don’t seem to be pointing in Ukraines favor though. Maintaining an offensive is costly, and winter is approaching. Strategically, it could provide bargaining chips, but Russia just needs to wait it out while they maintain industrial advantages.

              It seems to me that this is ultimately not going to change the dynamic much, at the cost of Ukranian lives.

              • Skua@kbin.earth
                45·
                3 months ago

                I don’t think we should expect any given offensive by either side to completely overturn the whole war. A move also does not have to do that to be worthwhile. All it has to do to be worthwhile is cost Russia more than it costs Ukraine (relative to the resources available for each side). Given that Ukraine is destroying bridges, I don’t think that they intend to push much further unless a remarkable opportunity presents itself

                • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
                  51·
                  3 months ago

                  Yes, but offensives are usually costlier than defensives. Given that Ukranian equipment has come at a far greater cost than Russian equipment, Ukraine has to be extremely careful in any engagement to not fall behind materially.

            • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.mlEnglish
              31·
              3 months ago

              Bringing the war into Russian territory also makes it more difficult for the Russian government to sell to the population

              Absolute mind palace nonsense

        • MaeBorowski [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
          193·
          3 months ago

          Like so many others who get their understanding of events from mainstream western media, you really don’t have a clue as to what’s going on. Here are some things for you to consider.

          The fascist Ukrainian leadership is gang pressing civilians on the street into unmarked vans to be sent off to the front lines to die as cannon fodder. This is well documented and is open knowledge. Forced conscription is rampant and even many of those civilians in Ukraine who are against Russia (and not all of them are by any means) are now actively sabotaging the Ukrainian military. (see more on that below).

          All along, the US and NATO have demanded that this war continue, despite the fact that Russia has offered reasonable peace terms numerous times, and despite the fact that it was never winnable for Ukraine. NATO (the US) does not give a shit about throwing Ukrainian people into a meat grinder if it means they can take out a few Russians too and continue the grift of enriching western arms manufacturers while plundering the country by privatizing every public asset that once existed there.

          What you call a Russian invasion was actually Russia entering into a civil war that was already in progress, a war where the Kiev regime (that took power via western-backed coup by the way) was shelling the Donbas (eastern part of Ukraine), murdering civilians, burning trade unionists alive in their union halls, and trying to ethnically cleanse the Russian-speaking populace that lives there. Most of eastern Ukraine did and still do see Russia as coming to help liberate them, and are fighting against the Ukrainian regime as they have been long before February of '22, but since then have been doing so alongside or as part of Russia.

          Ukrainians are dying because the (literal) nazis in control of Ukraine along with their masters NATO, will not allow the war to end so long as any Ukrainian with the ability to fight still lives. And it’s not just Russian weapons and military that is what ends up killing them, regardless of the fact that it is the interest of western imperialists that is ultimately responsible for sending them to their deaths. Ukrainians who refuse to fight have been getting killed from the start by Ukraine, some of them literally shot in the back as they try to flee, or bombed in train stations as they tried to get out of the country. And now children, many of them the children of parents who were already killed, are doing things like sabotaging Ukraine’s military vehicles. And guess what… these kids are getting executed on sight for doing so:

          Resistance to military conscription deepens in Ukraine as leaders talk of role as a mercenary power

          spoiler

          Every day, across the country, police are reporting arson attacks against Ukrainian military vehicles. Military personnel in the rear are increasingly wary of leaving their vehicles on the streets overnight, instead parking them near police stations. But even this does not always help.

          Those detained by police for these attacks have mostly been teenagers between 12 and 18 years of age, according to governor Oleh Sinegubov of Kharkiv Oblast (province), writing in early August.

          As a result of such attacks increasing in number, Oleh Romanov, commander of an anti-tank unit of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU), has declared he has given permission to shoot on sight those who set fire to military vehicles in the rear. “In coordination with higher command, using military immunity, I give verbal permission to my fighters to shoot those things on the spot. Such traitors must be eliminated on the spot, considering wartime conditions.” His unit is the 3rd Separate Assault Brigade, formerly a unit of the neo-Nazi ‘Azov Battalion’ now fully integrated as an autonomous unit of the regular army.

          So the commander of what is today a regular Ukraine military unit is openly claiming that he has issued orders to shoot without trial civilian youths should they be caught in the act of damaging military equipment… or be only accused of doing so. Ukrainian authorities are not denying that many of the attacks against military equipment are carried out by teenagers, nor do they deny that orders to shoot perpetrators are being issued and are bypassing the formal, decision-making of the country’s government and armed forces general staff.

          …

          The “twisted world we’re living” in is the real one, not the propaganda-spun fake world you mistakenly believe to be reality. Pry your head out from under the propaganda spigot and look around, you might even then consider joining us in understanding what is actually happening in the world.

        • Bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
          83·
          3 months ago

          What twisted world are you people living in?

          Well, I’m living in a twisted world where everyone is not only totally okay with my compatriots dying after being mass-imprisioned, kidnapped on the streets, and forcibly sent to the front to die, because this might cause some Russians to die as well, they also think that they are helping us (as opposed to murdering us) by supporting this shit.
          WBY?

        • Skua@kbin.earth
          210·
          3 months ago

          Welcome to the world of looking at every single world event through the lens of “America bad” and literally only that

          • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
            10·
            3 months ago

            Which country has over 800 external military bases again?

            By comparison, all other countries combined have less than 20.

            • Skua@kbin.earth
              17·
              3 months ago

              This is exactly what I mean. America’s overseas bases do not justify invading Ukraine. If anything Russia is making every Eastern European country that already has those bases feel like having them is beneficial.

              • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
                8·
                3 months ago

                Ohh I see now, the US doesn’t have enough bases then in your opinion, and countries need to beg them to build and expand more.

                • Skua@kbin.earth
                  16·
                  3 months ago

                  ahh yeah that’s literally exactly what I said, thanks. Why bother commenting that? I did not even slightly imply that America’s overseas bases were a good thing. I said that they don’t justify invading Ukraine and that Russia is making its neighbours want American bases.

    • Black_Mald_Futures [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
      4214·
      3 months ago

      you are, and I cannot stress this enough, a moron

      Liberals like you are the reason we’re going to have world war 3, because you’re too fucking stupid to actually be aware of what’s going on in the world

  • superkret@feddit.org
    611·
    3 months ago

    This article was written by ChatGPT3 and they didn’t even change the structure to hide it.