I’ve been speaking with other more informed communists and they’ve told me that none actually exist. Is this true?

China, Laos, and Vietnam: now notoriously capitalists. Workers work 12+ hours with no protection in horrible factory conditions. Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed. The air is so polluted millions die from lung cancer, especially factory workers w/out basic masks. Corporations dominate

North Korea: Undemocratically ruled by the Kim dynasty. Jong un indulges lavishly at the expense of his citizens, ordering millions in fine wine and trips from Denis Rodman. They might be the most socialist though, as Juche seems to otherwise be democratic.

Cuba: Sanctions have taken a massive toll, but even taking that into account the country still has its own problems. They have massive food shortages and inventory probs and aren’t self sufficient after 60+ years. Why couldn’t they’ve use machinery imported from the Soviet Union to develop their agriculture and fishery? The Soviets supported them heavily. They seem to be incredibly mismanaged or corrupt

  • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
    607·
    1 year ago

    To answer this question, we have to dive into the meaning of the main terms. What does it mean for a country to be communist or socialist?

    To start with the term communist: calling a country communist has meant it’s run by a communist party, not that it has implemented communism as a classless, stateless society (which could not exist in the context of distinct nations in the first place, by definition). By this definition, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam are communist countries.

    PS, anyone saying something like “real communism hasn’t been tried” doesn’t even understand the words they’re using and is not themselves a socialist or communist. Instead, they’re a confused liberal.

    Next, socialist, and the idea of a socialist country. There is actually not a shared and specific definition of what would make a country socialist per se, it’s more of a project to deestablish the capitalist class and put the working class in power. Many socialists disagree with one another about whether a given country is socialist, and what is really underlying their thoughts is usually just whether or not they think a country is attempting to deestablish capitalism and/or is making sufficient progress in doing so.

    In terms of your specific examples, I’ll offer some critiques.

    China, Laos, and Vietnam: now notoriously capitalists. Workers work 12+ hours with no protection in horrible factory conditions. Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed. The air is so polluted millions die from lung cancer, especially factory workers w/out basic masks. Corporations dominate

    No socialist expects that the country they operate in after revolution will be free of having to work, for there to be no workplace abuses, for there to be no pollution or healthcare problems, or even for corporations to be immediately deestablished. In reality, what is expected is for the ruling party to begin a long process of undermining capitalist relations. One example is to place human needs into guarantees of the state rather than the whims of private corporations. Another is to quell the anarchy of the market through state controls on production. It is expected that the ruling party will rapidly address the key isy that drove the revolution, which has historically been land reform. An example of this in your list is that every person in Vietnam has a right to an amount of land to farm rice for themselves and their family.

    You should also consider that these countries do not operate in a vacuum. Instead, they must fight to survive in a world dominated by extreme international violence, typically from capitalist countries. Therefore, countries like China and Vietnam have adopted specific strategies to deal with this intentional influence, i.e. to combat imperialists. China’s example is one of economic entanglement and to allow private markets in special economic zones, which will allow tons of capitalist elements and social relations to exist there. This strategy is working out relatively well, however: China has advanced concentrated industry and imperialist countries (e.g. the USA) that usually bomb or sanction their way into countries premised on socialist projects cannot do so without devastating themselves. Vietnam was forced into a similar situation but with less leverage and concentration of industry. This is a result of the legacy of being genocidally bombed by the imperialist powers during their struggle for national liberation. They won that war but arguably lost much of the peace, as the imperialist countries, despite stealing so much from Vietnam, saddled them with large debts as a condition for ending the war. Such debts were used to force more capitalist relations, especially foreign ownership, into Vietnam. This is a common story around the world, where most countries are violently bullied into carrying large debts in order to lose control of their own countries’ economies. With all that said, Vietnam is still riledy by a communist party and does distinguish itself from surrounding countries in how it pushes back against capitalist relations and prioritizes its people.

    North Korea: Undemocratically ruled by the Kim dynasty. Jong un indulges lavishly at the expense of his citizens, ordering millions in fine wine and trips from Denis Rodman. They might be the most socialist though, as Juche seems to otherwise be democratic.

    Nearly all of this is liberal fairytales with little basis. The Kims have high roles in the party but don’t act like dictators, more like figureheads. The primary challenge for North Korea isn’t the Kims at all, it’s the continued occupation of South Korea by the imperialists. Did you know that the Korean War is ongoing and that America won’t let South Korea end it? North Korea is brutally sanctioned at the direction of the United States, and this is where its poverty originates. NK outperformed SK for decades (SK was a military dictatorship at the time) and only ran into famine conditions when the USSR fell and the US imposed an all-encompassing, genocidal sanctions regime.

    I don’t think discussing Juche or the NK political system in general would mean anything until the core misunderstandings are dealt with.

    Cuba: Sanctions have taken a massive toll, but even taking that into account the country still has its own problems.

    Socialism is not when a country has no problems. Socialists are ruthlessly locked in on practicalies, not utopian wishes.

    They have massive food shortages and inventory probs and aren’t self sufficient after 60+ years.

    This is hardly independent of the sanctions regime and Cuba did not have food security issues for decades until, again, the USSR fell and the US instituted massively broadened sanctions.

    Why couldn’t they’ve use machinery imported from the Soviet Union to develop their agriculture and fishery?

    They did. Who told you they didn’t?

    The Soviets supported them heavily.

    The Soviets traded with them when the imperialist powers were brutally sanctioning them. Cuba was not a client state being provided with alms. It was a recently decolonized country that had just survived a revolution and needed to build in the context of being treated like one big sugar plantation, brothel, and casino for Americans. They had to develop industry from the ground up and they routinely outperform the richest country in the world on health metrics, their healthcare system, and healthcare research.

    They seem to be incredibly mismanaged or corrupt

    According to who?

      • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
        275·
        1 year ago

        Can you be more specific about which 10 principles? Bunch of different people claim to have such a thing.

        I would head some things off in the last question, though. Why should we want a “normal” society? Shouldn’t we fight for liberation, which necessarily falls outside current norms? Shouldn’t we allow societies freedom to structure themselves in different ways under a framework of liberation? Imposing a “normal” society reminds me of Residential Schools, the attempt to destroy indigenous societies through Western indoctrination and removal from their families.

        The other thing to think about is the meaning of democracy, as the term is laden with a huge amount of propaganda and weaponization of thought patterns. I see Westerners call projects they work on democratic because sometimes people get to vote on parts of it even though power truly rests with, say, the people funding it or the people using interpersonal influence to direct the actual work to the exclusion of the voters. I see those same Westerners use cliches of “authoritarianism” to describe countries that actually respond to people’s needs while their own country ignores their own needs but buys their complacency with a limited voting system. I think we should question how the term is used and what we really mean by it, as well as whether our definitions of it mean that a space is actually made better through adopting allegedly democratic practices. Does it involve the people? Does it give them sufficient power? Does it defend against oppression? Is it a tool of oppression? These questions must be answered before a particular idea of democracy can be implicitly considered a good thing.

        As an example, I don’t remember voting to or otherwise being able to use the existing system to prevent the genocide the Palestinian people, but most people seem to be very comfortable calling the US a democracy. I do remember being taught white supremacist narratives in school as if they were fact - do my peers that got duped participate in a democracy if they have been throughly propagandized? What if they have no time outside of work to investigate anything? Etc etc.

        • anarchost
          1·
          1 year ago

          So you do fundamentally agree that democracy is good, correct? And you would be opposed to a society where a ruling class pretended it was sanctioned by the working class, right?

          Anyway, here are the 10 principles as they were originally written. How do you feel about them?

          1. We must give our all in the struggle to unify the entire society with the revolutionary ideology of the Great Leader Kim Il Sung.
          2. We must honor the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung with all our loyalty.
          3. We must make absolute the authority of the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
          4. We must make the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung’s revolutionary ideology our faith and make his instructions our creed.
          5. We must adhere strictly to the principle of unconditional obedience in carrying out the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung’s instructions.
          6. We must strengthen the entire party’s ideology and willpower and revolutionary unity, centering on the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
          7. We must learn from the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung and adopt the communist look, revolutionary work methods and people-oriented work style.
          8. We must value the political life we were given by the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung, and loyally repay his great political trust and thoughtfulness with heightened political awareness and skill.
          9. We must establish strong organizational regulations so that the entire party, nation and military move as one under the one and only leadership of the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
          10. We must pass down the great achievement of the revolution by the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung from generation to generation, inheriting and completing it to the end.
          • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
            274·
            1 year ago

            So you do fundamentally agree that democracy is good, correct?

            I don’t think you really read what I wrote, lol. I said that the entire concept of what is democratic should be challenged and questioned.

            And you would be opposed to a society where a ruling class pretended it was sanctioned by the working class, right?

            You’d have to make this coherent with a class analysis. If the ruling class is pretending to have the support of the working class, i.e. is not itself of the working class, then what class is ruling? There is no general answer to this question, you must apply it to a real country with its class divisions.

            Anyway, here are the 10 principles as they were originally written. How do you feel about them?

            They make me feel… bored? They were/are a line taken against perceived discontent factions, with the figure of Kim Il-Sung used as a cudgel to say, “shut the fuck up”. I guess they also remind me of the silly things that ignorant Westerners believe about North Korea and of the power of choosing words during translation.

            • anarchost
              1·
              1 year ago

              Regarding your complaint about the 10 principles, can you demonstrate that they were not translated to your personal preference? And does that mean, as they are written, you do object to them?

              I understand that their existence is extremely inconvenient to you, as you are attempting to fall back on liberal identity politics in order to ignore them. But I would prefer it if you didn’t attempt to dodge the question.

              • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
                304·
                1 year ago

                I didn’t list a complaint. I’m just familiar with the fun that Westerners have with, for example, using the term “worship” when it is just as validly (arguably more valid given the lack of religious implications in general) translated as “respect” or “admire”. Westerners are very gullible, you see, and love to think of themselves as superior to the Asian hordes, which includes constructing cartoonish ideas of designated enemy countries.

                None of that list is inconvenient for me, lol. You seem to be talking to yourself and hyping yourself up because you think you have a slam dunk and in the process are failing to read or understand what I’ve written. Remember, my answer to your question of how I feel about them is that it makes me bored. Perhaps you should take a little more time to read what is written before claiming anyone is dodging, lol.

                It looks like you’re spamming this same question to others, seemingly without it being relevant to what they’re talking about. Have you considered addressing anything I wrote in the comment you initially replied to? You didn’t actually do that, you know.

                • anarchost
                  1·
                  1 year ago

                  In other words, you would have a problem with the country telling its people to worship a strong man, but you wouldn’t have a problem with a strong man in general being put at the head of a state?

                  Do you believe the working class, in general, requires paternalism in order to correctly flourish?

                  Do you believe vocal criticism of a country’s leader should be allowed or not?

            • anarchost
              1·
              1 year ago

              Can you be specific about what fundamental principles of democracy you question? You just said America doesn’t really have a democracy, so you were implying that more democracy would be a good thing.

              So you don’t actually believe that? And if that’s the case, why did you signal as if you did? It seems pretty disingenuous to me

              • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
                204·
                1 year ago

                Can you be specific about what fundamental principles of democracy you question?

                I already wrote some out in my first reply to you. Do you have any thoughts on them?

                You just said America doesn’t really have a democracy, so you were implying that more democracy would be a good thing.

                Incorrect on both counts. What I did was say that the language and concept itself are laden with propaganda and selective or incomplete application, raising serious doubts about what it even means.

                An interesting aspect to your responses here is that you’re repeatedly reading things that I didn’t say while not recognizing the things I did say. This is very relevant my attempt to head off simplistic acceptance of, say, “democracy”. The point is that there are a lot of propaganda narratives and unjustified (implicit) assumptions that tend to get made and your inability to have a conversation with me is a good example of this. You’re clearly trying to slot what I’m saying to you into your existing framework, a precious epistemology, even when it doesn’t really make sense. This is another thought pattern you’ll have to leave behind if you want to have correct opinions or even just be capable of talking to other humans about politics.

                So you don’t actually believe that? And if that’s the case, why did you signal as if you did? It seems pretty disingenuous to me

                Having made no effort to understand my pretty simple and direct statements, you’re deciding to blame me for your confusion, lol.

                This situation is fairly simple: you think you’re here to “own” your perceived enemies and are now reaching at straws because it’s not going the way you hoped. Gotta find some way for me to be the bad guy, eh kid?

                • anarchost
                  1·
                  1 year ago

                  Okay, so regarding democracy, when you said you didn’t vote to allow a genocide in Gaza, were you saying a vote should have been taken, thus making the United States a more democratic country?

                  If that’s the case, then we agree that more democracy is good. If that’s not the case, why did you bring it up?

            • anarchost
              2·
              1 year ago

              No, what’s weird is you won’t answer my question.

              Perhaps you know that on one hand, if you condemn these, you will have become an apostate in the eyes of North Korea stans…

              • ikilledtheradiostar [comrade/them, love/loves]@hexbear.netEnglish
                17·
                1 year ago

                Condem what?, I have no idea what this is, or how it applies to DRPK governance. Some of the language is kinda sus but again its just standing alone out there, translated by whomever, and most importantly not written as legal language. Next you’ll be wanting me to condemn the word authority or some such nonsense. You keep posting this like it’s some sort of gotcha. The us constitution read uncritically seems nice but it is real shit.

                Here read this for some commie law writing:

                https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1936/12/05.htm

                • anarchost
                  1·
                  1 year ago

                  Unless you are admitting to not reading any of the previous posts before you replied, you know exactly what it is.

                  Instead of deflecting, let’s talk about the 10 principles and whether you find them acceptable or not. I understand this might cause some discomfort for you, because for some reason, many leftists like to treat the doctrine of many countries like holy scripture that must not be condemned, or must be interpreted in a certain way. I’m not that kind of religious person, though.

    • anarchost
      14·
      1 year ago

      How do you feel about the 10 principles? Are they something that a normal, democratic society would adopt?

  • zkrzsz [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
    362·
    1 year ago

    China, Laos, and Vietnam: now notoriously capitalists. Workers work 12+ hours with no protection in horrible factory conditions. Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed. The air is so polluted millions die from lung cancer, especially factory workers w/out basic masks. Corporations dominate

    Which news lead you to this? 20 years ago?

    • anarchost
      12·
      1 year ago

      Define capitalism, and then describe the economic system in Vietnam. I am curious what reality you exist in.

  • Vampire [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
    323·
    1 year ago

    China, Laos, and Vietnam… Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_countries_by_suicide_rate,_WHO_(2019).svg

    https://www.goldengate.org/district/district-projects/suicide-deterrent-net/

    North Korea: Undemocratically ruled

    North Korea is ruled by the Supreme People’s Assembly (최고인민회의) which is directly elected.

    Cuba… Why couldn’t they’ve use machinery imported from the Soviet Union to develop their agriculture and fishery?

    No reason not to. Lots of Soviet farm machinery there.

    I can give a longer response when I’m not on mobile, but so I know where to start: what have you read? What sources have you read about China’s economy, for instance?

    • anarchost
      11·
      1 year ago

      Can you provide a source for this so-called Supreme People’s Assembly being democratically elected?

      Who is allowed to be elected? Can the ruling party remove people from the ballot, ensuring their own elites remain in power forever?

      And while you’re taking questions, is there seriously a North Korean “Socialist Patriotic Youth League”?

    • anarchost
      23·
      1 year ago

      How do you feel about this North Korean doctrine?

      1. We must give our all in the struggle to unify the entire society with the revolutionary ideology of the Great Leader Kim Il Sung.
      2. We must honor the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung with all our loyalty.
      3. We must make absolute the authority of the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
      4. We must make the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung’s revolutionary ideology our faith and make his instructions our creed.
      5. We must adhere strictly to the principle of unconditional obedience in carrying out the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung’s instructions.
      6. We must strengthen the entire party’s ideology and willpower and revolutionary unity, centering on the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
      7. We must learn from the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung and adopt the communist look, revolutionary work methods and people-oriented work style.
      8. We must value the political life we were given by the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung, and loyally repay his great political trust and thoughtfulness with heightened political awareness and skill.
      9. We must establish strong organizational regulations so that the entire party, nation and military move as one under the one and only leadership of the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
      10. We must pass down the great achievement of the revolution by the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung from generation to generation, inheriting and completing it to the end.
  • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    211·
    1 year ago

    China, Laos, and Vietnam: now notoriously capitalists. Workers work 12+ hours with no protection in horrible factory conditions. Suicide rates are so high that suicide nets are installed.

    I just want to say it’s really funny that libs refer to Taiwan as China when it suits them. The specific Foxconn factory that was the center of this mess was in Taiwan and universities produced an 84 page report that investigated the matter when it blew up, one of the major reasons cited for the suicides in the report was discrimination against mainlanders occurring within the “labour camp” (their words) that was being operated there where taiwanese were privileged over mainlanders used for cheaper labour that they could exploit harder thanks to taiwan’s administration being dogshit on regulations. Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20100921055650/http://hk.stockstar.com/2010/05/2510087523186.shtml

    Lol. Lmao.

  • Liz_thestrange [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    18·
    1 year ago

    The Zapstist “Caracoles” are societies that live under their own goberment, based on the ideas of the EZLN, the bast mayority of them are located in the state of Chiapas, in the south of México

  • mycorrhiza they/them@lemmy.ml
    17·
    1 year ago

    I’ve been speaking with other more informed communists and they’ve told me

    Lol this reads like social engineering to shift perception of ingroup mores. I guess I’m paranoid after seeing that Atlantic Council whitepaper calling for greater control of the fediverse.

    • Are_Euclidding_Me [e/em/eir]@hexbear.netEnglish
      15·
      1 year ago

      I agree with your suspicion. Between the op being pretty obvious anticommunist bait and then that asshole arguing in incredibly bad faith about some alleged “10 principles” that supposedly guide all of politics in the dprk, I would guess that the reason this post exists is that people paid to post western propaganda on the internet are here doing exactly that.

  • Saigonauticon@voltage.vnEnglish
    61·
    1 year ago

    Hey, I own a corporation in Vietnam. I had no idea I dominated anything.

    The economic police verify I comply with the permitted activities on my business license, issued in accordance with the 5-year plan before last. If I’m doing something other than that, I get shut down (that’s not a problem though, I plan to continue complying).

    My employees certainly have legal protections. Heck, they have government health insurance (which is mandatory for me to pay for, and offers OK protection, and honestly I’m quite happy it’s a thing that exists). I have never seen a ‘suicide net’. There’s no at-will employment : I can’t just randomly fire people, I need to provide cause, and it has to be sufficient.

    The air quality in HCMC an Ha Noi is not great these days, but other than those two cities, is pretty good overall. I would classify it as ‘moderately bad’ in those 2 places. I drive through it on motorcycle on one of the worst routes in HCMC (D1 to Nha Be). It’s not my favorite thing about life in the city, but it’s also clearly not the main cause of lung cancer – that would still be cigarette smoking by a longshot.

    8 years ago, I would have called the air quality here ‘good’, it’s a fairly recent problem.

    Anyway, it’s not paradise but it’s no hellhole either. Ask me anything you would like to know!

    • birdcat@lemmy.ml
      6·
      1 year ago

      I’m also in Vietnam and just yesterday got brutally dominated by a Vietnamese corporation! The owners of a small food stall, a young couple, made me such an insanely crazy delicious hủ tíu, i almost fell of my chair.

      my taste buds? DOMINATED!

      my hunger? DOMINATED!

      my knowledge of what hủ tíu actually can be? ANNIHILATED!

      and now I’m infested with communism capitalism and will probably go back there tonight…

      • Saigonauticon@voltage.vnEnglish
        3·
        1 year ago

        Oh that reminds me, speaking of being infested, remember to take your de-worming pills every 4-6 months.

        Lot of people forget to do that here, but it’s sort of a good idea.

      • Saigonauticon@voltage.vnEnglish
        3·
        1 year ago

        If you like hủ tiếu, there’s a place behind the hindu-looking temple across from Takashimaya that’s quite decent and well-regarded (this is in HCMC). They use reasonably fresh squid.

        To get there, take the road off Pasteur that’s to your right when facing the temple. Before all the sketchy bars (avoid these) begin, there’s an alley. Go down this alley until you reach it.

        • birdcat@lemmy.ml
          4·
          1 year ago

          nah, domination of corporations is when millions of people owning their own small businesses.

            • mycorrhiza they/them@lemmy.ml
              2·
              1 year ago

              Economic liberalization is a defense against the kind of economic warfare that Cuba has been subjected to. Those are really the only two options: play ball with capitalism to some extent, or get strangled by sanctions.

                • mycorrhiza they/them@lemmy.ml
                  2·
                  1 year ago

                  communism involves the abolition of the government. If you want to know what America does to communist movements undefended by government look at Indonesia in 1965–66

    • makingStuffForFun@lemmy.ml
      2·
      1 year ago

      I’ve just spent a week in your city. What an experience. It’s truly one of the world’s great cities.

      Thank you for sharing your experiences. I own a small company in Australia. It doesn’t sound so different. Although if we dig in, I’m sure it is.

      Thanks again!

      • Saigonauticon@voltage.vnEnglish
        1·
        1 year ago

        Oh yeah, local tax/legal compliance stuff is a bit of a hassle as a foreigner. I bet that’s easier in Australia. The accounting system is weird, although that’s being fixed.

        25% of running a company anywhere though seems to be chasing unpaid invoices :P

    • anarchost
      12·
      1 year ago

      Sounds like you live in a nice social democracy!

      • Saigonauticon@voltage.vnEnglish
        2·
        1 year ago

        I do get reminded to vote all the time via text message, but am not a citizen yet, so can’t actually do so :P

  • Kalash@feddit.ch
    4·
    1 year ago

    I mean, you basically answer it yourself already.

    Being ruled by a dictatorship and massive corruption aren’t contradictions, it’s expected.

  • StrawberryPigtails@lemmy.sdf.org
    115·
    1 year ago

    Socialist, yes. Most of Europe is pretty heavily socialist.

    As far as communism goes though, not any at national scale. Where you tend to find actual communism tends to be in small, very tightly knit communities, but they don’t usually call the structure of how their communities function “communism” and at least here in the US, would be “annoyed” were you foolish enough to describe how they live as communism.