I’ve tried to search for opinions on what’s going on in Ukraine, but most posts are incredibly old. I’m not too educated on the matter myself (well, aside from keeping up most of the time with what cities are under whose control and all of that). I haven’t really heard much about the geopolitical side of things, and it’s hard to know what’s disinfo or not; That’s why I’d like to ask: What is your stance on the Ukraine war?
the end of the USSR was a disaster
If you downvote this comment and you aren’t a lib, why are you in this community.
The war is a proxy war between NATO and Russia that started in 2014 after the Maidan coup. When NATO threatened to allow Ukraine to join, it was a major escalation that demanded a response from Russia. In that sense, their SMO is an act of self-defense. I unequivocally support Russia on this, not because I agree with the Russian government’s domestic policy or long term vision for the world, but because NATO is the greater evil, and if they successfully contain Russia, then China is next, and we may never see a free world in our lifetimes.
2014 after the Maidan coup.
There was no such thing. Yanukovich broke his election promise regarding starting the EU association process, protests happened, snipers shooting at protesters and this law happend, which resulted in his impeachment and new elections.
Even if you consider his impeachment to be sus (the Rada played it fast and loose but has the power and had the votes) ordinary elections were held soon after, legitimising the following president (Poroshenko).
When NATO threatened to allow Ukraine to join
First off, There was never a point in time where Ukraine wasn’t allowed to join in principle. Membership is generally open.
Secondly, regarding European geostrategy, NATO is irrelevant in this case as Ukraine wanted to join the EU and the EU, too, is a defensive alliance.
it was a major escalation that demanded a response from Russia.
Escalation of what? Russia’s inability to re-constitute parts of its empire?
See, this is what really annoys me as a European: All these “NATO is threatening Russia” takes are incredibly Seppo-brained. Also, displaying the worst part of brainrot coming out of geostrategic Realism: They’re predicated on the idea that the only states ever having any agency are the US and Russia (because “superpower”) and everyone else is their pawn.
What possible reason could have countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland have to join NATO? Might it have something to do with being invaded, time and time again in history, by Russia and treated as colonial subjects?
Russia has been conquering its neighbours before the US even existed. Or do you seriously think a continent-sized country comes along naturally, without conquest?
(Side note: You should look at the Soviet opinion on geostrategic Realism. They called it a fig-leaf for imperialism, which is a completely fair point – and Russia, and anyone else using this “big player and a bunch of chesspieces without will of their own” model, is guilty of the same thing.)
but because NATO is the greater evil,
NATO is a fucking joke in this conflict. For one, the US has to be dragged kicking and screaming into doing anything. Turkey is being… Turkey. Even more, for many members it’s a moderating force: If you ask Poles we should immediately put boots on the ground, march to Moscow, not worry about nukes it’s more important Russia gets dismantled than us not getting glassed. That’s the kind of attitude Russia has, over the centuries, imprinted in its neighbours.
On balance I’m in favour of dismantling NATO, with the caveat that without Europeans in the mix, the US might get worse. But that’s a general point, “NATO good” or “NATO bad” doesn’t really play into whether Russia is in the fault here. And it is: It violated the territoriality integrity of Ukraine, of borders it itself very much agreed to not so long ago.
What kind of precedent does that set, saying “Here, give up your nukes and we’ll respect your borders” and then violating those very borders? When you go by “the purpose of a system is what it does” then boycotting nuclear non-proliferation seems to be what Russia is intent on doing because who is ever going to give up nukes if the result is getting invaded by a nuclear power.
Last, but not least: How can it be a bloody proxy war if Russia is participating directly. And Ukraine is fighting as a proxy for… Ukraine? Do words have meaning?
So we’re just gonna ignore that the US admitted to installing Porochenko lol okay
[citation needed]. I mean If it’s “US admitted” you’d easily be able point to some official statemantement, wouldn’t you?
In the meantime, yes we’re going to ignore disinfo.
Colonialists gtfo
Indeed Russia should also get out of Africa.
read more lenin ☝️☝️☝️
You might want to heed your own advice, and throw some Stalin in too.
I know exactly what you mean behind your innocent-looking comment. Do you think lenin was stupid? If lenin was here now i’m pretty sure he would recognize the obvious: The contradiction between usa, and the world’s continued existence.
I must be gullible, because I thought that person’s comment meant that we should read Lenin’s work regarding imperialism. Like how we should want both imperialist countries to weaken as much as possible so that the workers can find a chance to take power. Only issues is that the true imperialist nations that have an interest in this war, NATO/US, don’t have much to lose if Ukraine fails.
Any chance you could write out a deeper analysis on how this situation deviates from Lenin’s writings on wars between imperial powers? Or at least point me to a source that talks about it more? The only things that really jump out to me are what I wrote about in the first paragraph.
Difference is, Russia is not imperialist, so it is not an interimperialist war but a national bourgeoisie country resisting the global imperial hegemon (which didn’t exist yet in the time Lenin wrote that book), so it would also require reading Stalin’s later clarifications and Mao’s about contradictions.
Seriously, Lenin would be furious if he knew all those dogmatics interpret his work totally ignoring the conditions.
Thank you for the sources, i’ll be sure to check them out. I’m still new to reading theory and all that.
Does he write about his mass killings?
You’re projecting again. I didn’t know you were a mass murderer, but with your contempt for humanity, it kinda makes sense.
The main enemy is at home. Not our war. Should be ended asap if possible at all. Funding the arms monopolists creates incentives for war and is historically much of the base for fascism, not a way to peace.
But it also offers some much needed breathing room for the global south by depleting Western imperialism militarily, economically, politically and financially. The weakening of the dollar system being the most important development in this (imo).
Think that sums it up for me at least.
It is the rubble who has taken the biggest hit. Russia and their inflated sense of selfworth has never had an economie larger then Italy.
As long as the US continues to exist in the form it’s in, it will either be at war or in a proxy war and people will be dying.
Big picture is, if Russia and Ukraine make peace, the US will start a new war somewhere else by invasion or proxy immediately afterwards.
So I’m not 100% on board with the sentiment that the war must end at any cost. We don’t get peace if the war ends if it means the US will just kick off another one.
War is bad. But any scenario that diminishes US hegemony and its ability to wage war (whether that’s in a peace treaty or in ongiong conflict) is preferable, because we’ll never have peace in this world while those warmongers in DC are allowed to continue.
This has been my take lately as well. If peace happens on any terms other than USA realizing it has lost it’s hegemony the killing will just move somewhere else. If the war is able to continue until its conclusion It quite likely will mean an end to American imperialist wars which have killed tens of millions since WW2. That this war has also gotten BRICS+ out of the thinking stage and into action means that further millions will be saved by ending USA’s ability to unilaterally sanction whomever it chooses.
While i agree with alot of what you say, this war is not centered around the USA. And would still have happened with or without it.
These warmongers are in the kremlin
USA is controlling ukraine’s government. They want to kill as many ukrainians and russians as possible. They must be stopped. Also, boris johnson prevented peace talks. To hell with him.
What are you smoking?
You are smoking projection
Do I support innocent civilians dying or workers being sent to fight and getting killed? No. Do I support stamping out of Nazis? Yes. Russia has a right to security guarantees on its border which the west has continually undermined for the last 30 years. Ukraine is being use as pawn to destroy Russia and Russia made the ugly decision of striking back. I welcome the downfall of NATO.
I welcome the downfall of NATO.
Considering Russia’s invasion has directly lead to the doubling of NATO’s border with Russia (via Finland joining), the soon to be member Sweden, as well as many NATO countries spending more on defense, I fail to see how Russia’s invasion has done anything but strengthen NATO.
You think countries like Sweden taking money away from public services and funneling them into corrupt and bloated private military-industrial corporations makes them “stronger”?
I welcome the downfall of russia and there inflated self worth. If you dont support innocent people getting killed, dont support an invading country.
Russias security guaranties on ther borders are bullshit, when its them who is actively trying to keep all the regions unstable.
But fuck the people of the Donbas being shelled endlessly and starved for the better part of a decade by the Ukrainians amiright.
The unrest in donbass started when russia send its undercover army there in 2014. Without russias agression there would not have been a frontline.
Donbass wasnt shelled endlessly by ukranians, this is just wrong.
USA sent an undercover army in 2014, not russia.
Always projection.
Here is an article about it from ProleWiki, which is associated with Lemmygrad and has some of the same admins.
That wiki always impresses me
The first gulf war is an interesting thing to look at. Saddamn told the US state department he would invade Kuait because they were cross drilling into Iraqi oil fields and we’re traditionally a ‘part of Iraq’.
State department said we don’t care
Of course, they did care and used that as cassus belli to attack Iraq and ‘contain’ Saddam which was the original intended consequence.
The war in Ukraine is the same. The neocons in the US have wanted Ukraine to open it’s markets to blackrock and Goldman Sachs forever. They helped foment the coup and selected Ukrainians president. They knew Russia would invade if Ukraine started the process to join NATO.
The US wanted this war. It was a trap for Putin and because he is an idiot he fell for it. The goal is to weaken Russia , sell us LNG to Germany at 200% markup and flood Lockheed and Raytheon with billions of dollars. It’s a win win for the US because no American boots on the ground they get to fight Russia via proxy until the last Ukrainian.
I’m totally against the war and old enough to understand the only way it ends is with a negotiated settlement.
It was a trap for Putin and because he is an idiot he fell for it.
You should read less NYT.
“Damned if you do damned if you don’t” is not a “trap.” Being lied to over and over is not a “trap.” Putin was backed into a corner. He didn’t want to fight but in the end it was either fight or let nazis and NATO live on Russia border and genocide Russian speaking civilians until they were ready to invade Russia itself.
If Putin is “an idiot” how did he manage to insulate Russia’s entire economy from sanctions? He spent the whole time he was trying to avoid the fight also making contingencies for when the fight happened.
The war is hollowing out the EU. They have lost access to cheap Russian energy and so their manufacturing capability is being gutted. All they have left is their Financial capital and without industry to back it up it will disappear before they can rectify their energy situation. European companies are already moving to China.
While the MIC is gaining short term profits from the war overall it will be a major loss. Furthermore the war has shown the global south the need for an alternative to $US. BRICS+ will be direct competition for american dollar hegemony destroying its value. Any $ gains the MIC makes it will have to pay back ten fold to the global south who they traditionary exploited for raw materials. The global south will have alternative buyers that will give them fairer prices in $ which will cause $ to lose more value. On top of all that it has shown how flawed NATO weapon systems really are, how they fare against much cheaper weapons from Russia, and how slowly they are produced. Any nation looking at purchasing weapons supplies is going to consider Russia because they are better value for money by factors of 2 digits and they wont have decades long wait lists.
The material reality of things on the ground in the war and in economies of the nations involved is completely contrary to your post.
I agree with a lot of your points, it was a ‘fucked if you do fucked if you don’t’ situation for Putin and actually I’m not even sure about the Great Man theory of history so even if someone else was leading Russia they would probably still have responded the same way. I don’t know, it still feels like a trap though. And of course the dialectical analysis shows that by cutting Russia off the swift system the BRICS economic integration just intensifies and accelerates de-dollarisation.
But I stand by my comment about Putin being stupid. Calling it a police action without stating exact goals means he’s already lost the information war. There also is no way to win this war unless he goes shock and awe and literally destroys the entire country. Which is not the goal. So the Russian military cant destroy everything to force a solution, and the US is loving it, just pouring infinite money, tanks, jets, climbing the escalation ladder. They intend to outspend Russia and force a domestic coup. Which also won’t happen.
So it’s a lose lose for everyone except the military industrial complex, Goldman Sachs and US LNG exporters
But I stand by my comment about Putin being stupid. Calling it a police action without stating exact goals means he’s already lost the information war.
But he didn’t do that. Putin said exactly what the SMO was supposed to do. Putin has some serious flaws but being stupid isn’t one of them. Stop reading the NYT. “because x is stupid/incompetent/insane/evil” is the weakest analysis you can do. It is almost never true and just shows that you don’t understand the situation. It’s marvel movie level thinking.
The stated aims of the SMO are Defence of the Donbas separatist states, Demilitarization, Denazification, and forcing Ukraine to stay neutral. Since Ukraine and the west proved they are pathological liars Russia’s game plan changed a little and now they have incorporated the break away states into Russia proper but the other goals have stayed the same.
Ukraine’s army will eventually collapse. They can’t stand up against Russia forever. They cant recruit soldiers fast enough, The west cant manufacture weapons fast enough and even if they could they wouldn’t want to give them away to a failed state. When that happens all that remains is tearing down some nazi monuments and installing a puppet government.
Again the MIC and LNG exporters win is a short lived boost that will ultimately accelerate their own downfall. Their wins are at the cost of their allies. USA are cannibalizing Europe to prop themselves up. This is only a win if you don’t look past the immediate future.
The stated aims of the SMO are … Denazification
Putin returned the Azov battalion leaders and fighters to Ukraine in a prisoner swap. If Azov are Nazis, as is commonly stated, Putin is doing a very, very poor job at denazification in Ukraine.
What was he supposed to do? Let Russian POWs be shot and tortured while azov nazis get treated like humans?
The plan isn’t to hunt down and kill every nazi. Its to make a society where nazism is strongly discouraged. When Ukraine surrenders there will be prison sentences for nazis in Ukraine like there are in Russia.
Eu is doing fine, russia is soon to fall appart.
Lol you live in copeistan
A negotiated settlement is worth nothing without all of the russian soldiers leaving ukraine.
Russia is currently fighting a war is with a client regime that US installed in Ukraine after overthrowing the democratically elected government in 2014. I generally agree with the reasoning for why Russia decided to start a preventative the war that Mearsheimer gives here.
While Russia has a reactionary capitalist regime, it is acting as a bulwark fighting against US global hegemony right now. NATO has been forced to devote practically all of its resources to the proxy war and this created room for the Global South to finally start shaking off western hegemony. We are seeing a major global realignment happening with countries moving off the dollar and BRICS rapidly expanding.
The war has also derailed US plans for containment of China, and it’s clear that China is taking advantage of the additional time that Russia bought it. I expect that by the end of the war we will likely see the reverse moment of when USSR collapsed, and US led capitalist world order became dominant. This time around, it will be the capitalist order that crashes, and it will be replaced by socialist one led by China.
Prior to 2014, Ukraine has usually had Russian-friendly governments. Some more than others, but relations between the two countries were generally close, if sometimes strained.
In 2014 there was a coup in the Ukraine (or a revolution, or a series of protests that resulted in the president stepping down, whatever) called Euromaidan. These protests involved Neo-Nazi paramilitary groups (which are very common in Ukraine) marching in the streets. The government that emerged afterwards was solidly anti-Russian.
Separatists in the Donbass region (Eastern Ukraine, the parts that Russia is now occupying, which is about 50% Russian) immediately began trying to secede. Elections stopped being held in these regions, solidifying the anti-Russian government. Crimea, which is almost 100% Russian, was retaken by Russia with almost no resistance.
The Ukrainian War started in 2014 when the post-Euromaidan Ukrainian government began using artillery, snipers, and fascist paramilitary volunteers against the Donbass separatists. 2022 was just when the Russians decided to get involved.
The Russian government claims that the invasion was in order to “De-Nazify” Ukraine. The motivation to protect the Russian ethnic minority was also clear, but since Russia is a multi-ethnic federation, saying this sort of thing is a political no-no in Russia.
In reality, Russia invaded because Ukraine was considering membership in NATO. In 2008, Georgia was similarly considering membership in NATO. Russia then invaded and liberated the provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which remain independent to this day, and stationed troops in these regions permanently. This was done because, if they allowed Georgia into NATO, it would require NATO to defend Georgia; since NATO membership requires approval of all existing members, there is always going to be at least one member who is not eager for immediate war with Russia. This is the same thing that is happening in Ukraine: Russia is permanently occupying parts of Ukraine so that, if Ukraine were to join NATO, NATO would be obligated to “defend” them against Russia.
I think you may be downplaying the Denazify part of it. The fact that Ukraine has continually glorified genocidaires, put up monuments to them, incorporated neo-nazis into their government, armed them, and are supported by NATO, is something the entire world should be alarmed at. For example, Canada’s deputy PM is a descendent of them and condones their actions, which is extremely troubling. Poland and the Israel regime have also condemned Ukraine in similar ways for this.
One of the main reasons for the original secession of the Donbass was like you said outright attacks, and attempting to “Ukrainize” the area language wise, which is absurd considering how similar the people are.
Unsurprisingly the country that was invaded by Nazis doesn’t like Nazis doing genocide on their border
The nazi problem of ukraine is not nearly as big as you guys seem to think. This is obviously a blatent excuse to show on their own propaganda channels. What news are you reading?
Right, so Israel and Poland are just fucking idiots for making a diplomatic incident over Ukraine’s constant reverence of people who perpetuated the Holocaust? the fact that there are doofuses like you denying this is just another reason why it is a problem. hell, look at this list of monuments to just 1 SS guy, and that’s just in Ukraine, not counting the ones in other countries or other Ukranian nazis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commemoration_of_Stepan_Bandera
Anyways, stay mad. The Nazi corpses thankfully keep piling up.
I recently did a whole tour trough poland near the border with ukraine. And Poland as a relatively poor country is doing maby the most to help ukranians.
I suggest you actually read the article about bandera, here are two parts for you:
References to Bandera and “Banderites” in Russian propaganda featured during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, with Vladimir Putin making references to “Banderites” in his speeches. Russia heavily promoted the theme of “denazification”, and used rhetoric that was similar to Soviet era policy of equating the development of Ukrainian national identity with Nazism due to Bandera’s collaboration, which has a particular resonance in Russia.
Political scientist Andreas Umland wrote in 2017 that issues of remembrance in Ukraine are complicated by its history of existing between and being terrorized by two totalitarian regimes, where millions of Ukrainians were killed, but some collaborated, and the extensive exploitation and manipulation of this history by an aggressive neighbor, Russia.
Anyways, stay mad. Kiev is older them Moskow.
Anyways, stay mad. Kiev is older them Moskow.
Muh heritage. Nazi talk. Mask off.
By that logic the capital of the world would be Jericho or Damascus.
The Russian government claims that the invasion was in order to “De-Nazify” Ukraine.
This is really overstated. That reason was given amongst many others. The mass liberal media seized upon it and amplified it to ridicule it, even though it has a solid basis. Stating that was the reason for the invasion is simply false.
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These protests involved Neo-Nazi paramilitary groups (which are very common in Ukraine) marching in the streets.
Which are more common in Russia and which didn’t make up the bulk of the protests.
What you also fail to mention is that the protests started with Yanukovish breaking an electoral promise: Starting EU accession talks.
The government that emerged afterwards was solidly anti-Russian.
You mean that was elected.
The Ukrainian right wing, btw, saw an electoral loss in 2014, in 2012 Svoboda had 10%, in 2014 Svoboda + Right Sector 7%.
The Ukrainian War started in 2014
Indeed. But not with Ukraine bombing anything, but Russia annexing Crimea and sending little green men to Luhansk and Donbas. The “revolutions” there were Russian astroturf.
If you think that “Ukraine shelled Russians in the Donbas for eight years” then, how to put it best, take it up with Prigoshin. As well as reality. The reason Ukraine had so much trouble defending against that part of the invasion was precisely because it could not be met with military force. A police response would’ve been proper but by the time they figured that one out the Russian agents had already solidified their position.
The Russian government claims that the invasion was in order to “De-Nazify” Ukraine. The motivation to protect the Russian ethnic minority was also clear, but since Russia is a multi-ethnic federation, saying this sort of thing is a political no-no in Russia.
Ukraine is multi-ethnic, too. And no that isn’t a taboo in Russia in the least. Everybody knows that Shoigu survived the shark tank that is the Kremlin because, as a Tuvan, he is no threat to whoever is currently president. Russia with a Tuvan head of state is unthinkable.
Zelensky, btw, is ethnically Russian.
The reason you hear “de-nazify” has nothing to do with actual Nazis, that’s not how the word is used in Russia. It’s simply “the enemy”. Hence why they manage to call a Jew a Nazi. There’s a lot of words which have strange meanings in Russia due to complete lack of political education. When Putin is saying “de-nazify” he’s not talking to people who read Umberto Eco.
In reality, Russia invaded because Ukraine was considering membership in NATO.
That’s part of it but not at all all. Ukraine was perfectly willing to let go of any NATO aspirations in the beginning of the invasion if Russia withdrew from Ukrainian territory (there would still be the EU, which is also a defensive alliance, but at least the Yanks would be out of the picture), Russia wasn’t interested, what we instead got was Bucha so the option is off the table because no Ukrainian, no matter the ethnicity, believes any more that they will be safe outside of a 110% integration with the west.
There’s another reason: Russian national mythos doesn’t recognise Ukrainians as a separate ethnicity – if you allow there to be a separate ethnicity Moscow couldn’t claim to be the rightful successor to the Kyivan Rus, any more, a core aspect of its “justification” for imperialism (“Rightful ruler of all the Slavs here, and more”). The Russian empire never tolerated Ukraine as a place that should exist independently. If you want to read up on history, start in the 15th century with the Russification policies of the Empire. Russia has no such interest in Georgia.
This was done because, if they allowed Georgia into NATO, it would require NATO to defend Georgia; since NATO membership requires approval of all existing members, there is always going to be at least one member who is not eager for immediate war with Russia.
That’s not how that works. If necessary NATO would have said “…excluding already occupied territories”.
Euromaidan wasnt a coup organised by neonazis, crimea isnt 100% russian, NATO was never the agressor. Please get your shit right. And do some fucking research before you type a blogpost.
Nato was never the aggressor? You didn’t hear about the 15 countries they expanded to since 1991 that surround Russia?
You have no idea what you are talking about. Where do i even begin to correct you?
I strongly suggest you to watch the russian roulette series by vice news. The also were at the euromaidan. And they shot some crazy footage there.
I the video you will see that the euromaidan wasnt just a bunch of nazis protesting. Far from it. Those were some ordinay people. Who were fighting for a better country. For all the values who seem to be incompatible whit the russain government. Holding ukaine hostage.
Just like belarus isnt realy a country on its own. Its more like a proxy state run by russia.
I appreciate that you mentioned that vice news series, it’s always nice to see something new. But, you’re absolutely wrong about the EuroMaidan protests, neo-nazis played a huge role in it. Check out this article that also includes photo and video evidence regarding it: https://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/
Maby start with this video instead, it shows footage from the vice docu and does a bit of a better job explaining it, i I am really interested in your opinion on it.
I have read the article but a lot of the links arnt working on my phone. I will try give a proper response to it soon.
But to say that the euromaidan was a uprising by nazis is such a misrepresentation. I have never seen nazis openly protesting to join the EU. I would rather call them ultra natianolists.
To be a nazi is different in every country, depending on it history. To call people a nazi leaves out so much details en glosses over all the cultural differences. And i do think russia is using this.
The russians are the agressors in this war, and putin is a political leader with absolute power. For me this is definatly what it means to be a nazi.
Ther might be some nazi sypathizers in ukraine, but none of it is institutionalised.
- Your definition of nazi means that Americans are nazis.
- Having an open nazi battalion in your army is the definition of institutionalized.
- Correct (my homecountry has been a nazi to a few colonies itsdlf aswell)
Waving a nazi flag is one thing. But shooting random civillians, taking territory, concentration camps, deportation. Makes you a real nazi. Al of these thing are normal in the russian army. While ukranians are actively trying to do better.
Ukraine has a long way to go but that way is with the EU and its values.
https://youtu.be/lVkBVExuXSQ Russia should invade usa?
https://youtu.be/XQc6mJ7u8gQ Russia should invade russia?
I take China’s stance: please let’s fucking talk this over because we’re only doing more harm right now
But for this war to end Ukraine has to stop being outright nazis in service of imperialism. We need organizing of armed dissidence inside Ukraine. We need conscripted soldiers fragging their imperialist commanders stat
Talking things over can only happen if russia leaves ukraine entirely(doubt it). Else they wil use the time to dig in deeper. It is also hard to communicate with the kremlin because the try to poison you and ther word is worth nothing.
And how is the country being invaded the nazi imperialist?
USA is the imperialist. You are the imperialist apologist.
there was this story i read a long time ago about an american soldier in iraq, talking to an iraqi interpreter who is smoking a cigarette, the american asks him why they were fighting each other (iraq and kuwait) despite them looking the same, dressing the same and, speaking the same language.
so the interpreter takes a long drag of his cigarette, (something along of the lines of) “they’ll keep killing each other until they get tired of it and go home.”
i may have gotten the countries wrong, but I know I got the general main line of the story remembered.
I’m new to lemmygrad, but i think that the general principle of Marxists Leninist is to liberate the working class. Then I think everything else breaks into strategies and etc which of course people have different stances on like moves in chess
some liberals feel putin is to blame, some people say nato expansion, and some lads are saying the 2009 recession was never properly dealt with - that we are now facing the contradictions of capitalism in the form of war.
at the end of it all, the war sucks and most likely foretelling of more conflicts (and subsequently more suffering)to come. (regardless the way the media wants to frame the war, it is the people who suffer)
In what world is putin not to blame, didnt he order his troop to attack ukraine?
hi, you are correct in an interpretation - my understanding is that the way marxists tend to analyse subjects is through how the broader system in general functions.
Trying to think of an example i probably would say something like, the story of the scorpion and the frog, while some would interpret that the fault of the drowning of the pair was due to the venom in the scorpion’s stinger or the individual scorpion.
mean while the marxist would interpret that it was in the inherent nature of the scorpian to doom them, and from their interactions at the beginning of the conversation the dominos began to fall. the last domino in the chain being the perishing of both. (or you could go even further and say new life would spawn from the remains)
Norhing is forever, nobody is here with a reason, we are all going to die.
But ukraine is not comparable to the helpless stupid frog in this story. They know about his nature to doom.
i think we are at a misunderstanding, the story of the frog and the scorpion was not a interpretation of the ukraine war, but an attempt of how marxists analyse systems that spawn results such as wars.
it was to help be an abstract explanation of a way of thinking, and not suppose to be a 1 to 1 representation of the war.
But how does this way of thinking lead to supporting hitler(putin)?
Im not saing you do, but this seems to be the trend here.
it could be interpreted that a principle of Marxism is to question everything, it is a way of thinking critically, it results in people developing multiple different understandings, and while there is “truth” in everything, arguably only one understanding is “correct”.
A way that the multiple interpretations can be understood is akin to the fractured groups that call themselves the followers of Christ (ALTHOUGH MARXISM IS NOT A RELIGION, it is a way of thinking critically).
There exist the Jehovah witnesses, roman Catholics, and protestants. their opinions differ so greatly in the interpretation of the bible to warrant breaking off from each other to form a new group but would still unify with each other under the symbol of the cross under existential threat (or seeking community in place hostile to christians).
We as Marxists, have different interpretations - while there exists only one “correct” answer, and of course we like any other group that have existed for atleast a century have those who call themselves Marxists but whose deeds would be considered abhorrent by the majority of “principled” marxists.
I would say from my limited readings that the main directive of the marxists is to liberate the workers of the world from the injustices of capitalism, how to get there is another story.
tl;dr people read marx, people think, people have thoughts, only one thought “right”, which thought right???
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/687025
You can check out this post from about a month ago with a lot of good analysis and discussion in the comments.
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That ukraine is full off nazis is a made up reason, by the russian federation, for an unjustified attack on the people of the beautiful country of ukraine.
The army of donbass was never ordinary. It was from 2014 filled with russians, who even shot down a passenger plane.
Russia is deliberitly shooting at public infrastructure, they are obviously the agressor and therfor the Nazis in this story.
I dont think you understand the conflict and what is really going on in ukraine.
Nazis are more than a villain in the Captain America movies buddy. They actually exist, in the real world even, and aren’t just a meaningless buzzword.
Sorry to tell you this, but smugness is not actually more important than education. I suggest you try doing a bit of the latter, instead of relying solely on the former. But who am I kidding? You’d dismiss everyone here as “nazi tankies” or something and smugly smug about your day supporting western imperialism because they’re the “good guys” in the movies.
And fuck marvel, never seen one movie of em
Please send me some of your finest youtube videos. Please educate me.
I realy dont think you have any clue what you are talking about.
So here is a photo of me in kyiv before the war.
Here’s a good one for you:
Hmmm that’s an interesting take. I had never seen the conflict from that angle actually.
I think they should have focused more on the economical aspect of the war, but still it was eye opening for me when they said “Arf arf arf arf arf arf!”
That type of crap might fool redditors, but you’re gonna have to try a lot harder here. And yes, Ukraine is filled with nazis to the brim. Courtesy of the US.
Please watch the vice documemtry series on crimea and maidan, and tell me wich of those people are the nazis.
Ukraine definitely has some ultra nationalists/nazis but how can you blame them when the have one of the most brutal histories of any country. I blame this on a lack of education, and hope this will inprove eventually.
The majority of ukraine is against nazis, for freedom of speech and for al the democratic values, and they have come a long way since 2014. But it is a proces.
It matters not what the Majority of Ukrainians are, its what the majority of the Armed forces and government are that causes this problem. Its all fine and dandy if majority of Ukrainians aren’t Nazis, but what matters is that their army is absolutely infested with them, and no sane nation will sit idle while a Nazi infested army murders people who speak your language and is vehemently hostile towards you.
“and no sane nation will sit idle while a Nazi infested army murders people who speak your language and is vehemently hostile towards you.”
Excactly and thats why we all group up against russia and its nazi group (wagner).
Ukraine just like poland have a weird hisory in the sense that the were right inbetween nazi germany, en russia both of them slaughtering ukranians. Some sided with russians against nazis en some with nazis against russians. This makes it so much more complex tan you make it up to be.
What a way to tell us you know exactly nothing about recent history except what some western TV told you.
Revolutionary defeatism
Removed by mod
Dudes rock
It’s when you live in the bad country and want it to lose a war
That was consise and very well written. I wish everyone was as good at writing things clearly as you.
