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Depending on your definition, this actually is not peak performance.
Subways are.
Obviously, the tunnels are absurdly expensive, but nothing moves as many people as quickly around a city as a subway.
They’re also extremely reliable, meaning people are even more likely to actually use them, and their above-ground footprint is essentially zero.
Subways are for mobility (moving large numbers of people rapidly); trams are for access (getting you close to your destination). They complement each other and a well-designed city would have both.
STOP I can only get so erect
You’re going to make me write a cute green-urbania fiction of my self-insert walking around a beautiful city with parks everywhere and using the sub-rails to go far distances and then get on cute retro san francisco style over land trams to make my way to walk-only brick roads and then walk to some book store, the corners piled high with books, with books stacked outside the store under a cloth awning, owned by a wise old man of unclear nationality who spends his days reading the books he sells, who knows me well enough to offer a glass of tea.
😩
I have to disagree. Accessibility of underground transport is abhorrent. Changing from underground to aboveground buses and trains is also shit. The space use of public transport in comparison to car infrastructure is completely negligible. If anything put all the cars underground as they are ugly and stinky. This picture also give you happy chemical because it is green and is not another dead, sealed asphalt hellscape.
I quite like underground transport, the stations can be absolutely stunning.
That might be the higher-than-is-really-safe concentration of fumes doing the stunning…
What fumes?
The toxic fumes created by all of those electric trams and subway trains, duh! /s
He’s making his own.
The London tube is full of soot from the days when they burned coal in there. It’s the only subway I’ve been in where every time I walked out, there would be black tarry shit in my nose.
Also, the brakes for trains throw all kinds of dust into the air in subways
wym accessability is abhorrent?
Its literally underground. Anyone that has a wheelchair, old people, blind people etc are not gonna enjoy using it. Elevators are often out of order and even if not its a hurdle.
Ramps, escalators, tiles, and seating. There is nothing inherently not accessible about subways, we just choose not to make them accessible. When I was in Japan, there didn’t seem to be any issue preventing wheelchair users, old people, or blind people from using the train system. Escalators can be used by people in wheel chairs and old people (and presumably blind people too, but I’m not sure.) There were tactile tiles in the floor to guide the blind, and there was plenty of seating specifically dedicated to old people, disabled people, and pregnant people. There were also wheelchair accessible cars on every train. As far as I could tell, it seemed just as accessible and easy to use for them as anyone else. (Also elevators were only usually kept open for the people who needed them)
Maybe in your city…
You sound like a concern troll. By this logic houses with more than 1 floor are by definition not accessible
But… They are literally not. My family never had the ability to move to any house they want because everything needs to be accessible on the ground floor.
What should I conclude of your personal experience, if it conflicts with what I hear from the disabled people in my life?
Maybe the fact that the disabled people in your life are lucky enough to be able to enough or be in positions where they can still function well?
Fuck, we can’t live in a house with proper door thresholds if we want the person in my life to have any semblance of independence.
Please, don’t assume your experiences are universal.
But I like watching things outside the trams.
Skytrains my dude, similar footprint, same tech, and I assume it costs significantly less, and is able to dip underground when there absolutely ISNT the footprint for it above ground
Monorail!
Monorail!
The ring came off my pudding can.
While monorails are cool, skytrains are literally just trains and thus insanely hard to beat for cost vs efficiency
Bleh
Would sky trains be as reliable? I assume subways are more reliable partially due to not being exposed to the elements.
My guess would be that they are separated from any traffic, just like a subway and unlike trams or buses which are a part of it. No other traffic = less delays and accidents = more reliable transport
and unlike trams or buses which are a part of it
Are you sure?
At the end of the day, they’re still just trains, and while Vancouver’s trains DO seem to be somewhat bafflingly effected by severe weather, for the most part things keep running like normal as it still is only somewhat
Yeah, I guess it depende of definition. For example there is also extra costs with lighting and ventilation for example for subways.
Tunnels also don’t take away space from people. This nice looking tramway could be a nice promenade for people instead.
Without trees. And with asphalt. Basically another asphalt field.
Asphalt field? Your comment makes zero sense.
Have you never seen a promenade with trees, greenery, benches, … ? You know a place where it’s nice for people to spend time instead of space taken up by yet another vehicle?
If San Francisco informs, light rail streetcars are a gateway to underground subways. It gets the city in the habit of getting on a railcar to go places while the greater infrastructure (the tunnels) are built.
MUNI is mixed undeground and street. BART is over and under and being extended to this day.
Completely agree, however I think this is decent intermediary between the larger investment into subways, especially depending on geology
Also if you really want you can put trams underground.
Totally agreed, but the image looks so nice with the grass, subways don’t have that
Grass is kind meh. Trees are better.
But the grass looks so nice to sit on!
You and grass will burn without trees.
Fair. What if I bring sunscreen AND trees? And a small chair? Maybe two?
Living in a big city there’s nothing more reliable than a subway. Driving you might always get stuck in traffic. But if you take the Metro your travel time is guaranteed to be as predicted.
True. 45-50 minutes on metro or 35-100 minutes on car.
Agreed, trams look good, but they aren’t able to move as many people as a train because of the limitation of the positioning of the doors. This means that for the same traffic you need more carts, and bigger, more expensive stations.
In cities where the density isn’t that high, digging a subway isn’t ideal, and you’d probably be better off with a tram, but for high density cities, subways are peak.
Generally speaking, the digging has to be done once, so I think it’s a good investment for a lot of cities.
Trams are, as you’ve noticed, a different usecase - subways are for getting you from A to B quickly, and trams are for getting you to the subway stop/straight to your destination on a shorter trip. One prioritises speed and throughput, the other - access and ease of use. Both should be used together to form a good transportation network, with buses and trains going to more remote/less dense areas.
Agreed 100%.
This is all a very abstract discussion. In Munich we have all - light suburban rail, a subway, a tram system and a bus system.
It’s not either or, but a very specific discussion which system is best for a specific use case given the existing city where you put things in.
We have parts where the trams sharing space with buses or even cars, that’s where the tram network is just kind of a higher capacity bus.
Other parts has dedicated spaces for the tram rails, they are connected to traffic signs so trams are nearly as fast as the subway.
Currently the city seems to build more trams as the subway network is at a capacity limit - and they can’t increase it without huge investments.
There’s a new subway line planned, as well as construction for a second light rail tunnel crossing the city underway - but those are hugely expensive, long term projects.
Sometimes they build a tram first, because it’s a lot cheaper to plan and implement and then replace it by aubway 15 years later.
And yes whe also have a tram line which uses a corridor of a former train line, so it looks like the picture. Whenever I go there I love that place, trams and buses available but no through traffic by cars (You can still go there by cars, but no through traffic as the whole area is a cul de sac)
Positioning of the doors?
Trams generally gave more doors than trains, resulting in less seating
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Trams are literal trains
where the density isn’t that high
Or shit soil
The problem is moving people to tunnels
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I cannot understand people that argue their 6 lane stroad is better than this in any way. It may feel more convenient for some, but at what cost?
Probably because public transit requires people to be around other people, and they’d rather get around in their little bubble without interaction (except giving a BMW the finger).
This but also a lack of experiencing good transit
True, but I’m just going off of my experience as an American. Too many people are so antisocial that the idea of sharing space with other strangers is foreign, mostly because they’ve lived so long without it. Obviously this isn’t true in places like NYC, but in Los Angeles you’d have a hell of a time convincing people to give up their cars.
I think a lack of being in public spaces creates the antisocial “uncomfortable around other people” issues that have been growing. Sprawl kills communities!
No it doesn’t. Rampant abuse and bigotry does, and that is the reality most Americans accept that you deny.
It’s dangerous being around strangers here, especially male ones who will overpower and beat/kill you in public for the slightest offense.
So people, especially women and trans folk, are safer in cars than they are on public transport.
And that’s nothing to say of the Jim Crow era, or how public transport was denied during the lockdowns depriving the elderly of freedom of movement.
No. Getting rid of cars will always be bad. You’ll never have your green utopia and you ought not to have it.
Safer from crimes is an argument that I could get behind depending on what country you’re in but in terms of keeping people alive, especially people outside of cars, cars are so much unsafer for all genders.
As for green utopia, I’m chillin’
For me its mostly the time factor. A 45 min drive takes 2 to 3 hours by transit in my city, or longer one way. And thats if busses show up and make connections. I would love to take transit but can’t make it work in a any that would mean I still get to sleep.
That is because your transit is underfunded and under prioritized. Good, viable transit is as fast or faster than cars.
underfunded and under prioritized
Or designed and scheduled by incompetence
Japanese transit it a sight to behold. Experienced it firsthand. In the greater Tokyo area taking a car was literally always just a 3 or 4 minute time save AND this was including the walk from anywhere I was at, to the sub, to my destination. If you accounted for parking time, since I didnt see much easily accesible parking over there, it was probably quicker to take public transit. If I lived over there I legit wouldn’t bother owning a car and I say this as someone who currently has one and really likes it.
There’s no fucking public sitting areas though so that sucks.
This is what headphones are for, fuck cars
This is from someone who feels physical discomfort when someone interacts me unprompted
Agreed, but I can understand the apprehension for those who aren’t familiar
I think the key thing is most people don’t like change. They know stroads. They may not love stroads but they work and it’s what they’ve used. I’ve been all over the place in this country and by and large public transportation SUCKS and creates more headaches than anything. Just hopping into a car is 1000x easier. So that’s the view I think most people go into this with. In the cities where public transportation is good, it’s a complete game changer, but they are few and far between so most people don’t have a good reference point. They see people pushing public transportation and think of their own shitty system and say F that.
They’ve also had to invest in their car personally and they don’t want to have their investment nullified. Who do they sell the car to if they’re no good anymore?
Of course, there will still be roads and you might still need the car; but if you have the car why not just drive straight to the place you need to go?
So personal transportation itself is a bit of a problem - you need to make the replacement better than the current status quo. If it doesn’t save people time, if it doesn’t allow people to transport goods as easily as vehicles do, they’re not going to want to give up their car; because at the end of the day it will ultimately complicate things for them.
It’s a huge challenge towards gaining acceptance for public transit.
It is only less than half of stroad. You stil have another half to add for people.
The whole problem is that you are asking the individual to assume societal costs. The individual is only seeking to meet their personal needs, and is not ready to engage on social progress.
To them, the transition from full utility via their own car, to relying on public transit suggests there will be a time of hardship, where the system is not fully laid out, but their options are curtailed.
Getting over that hump is critical to progress, and cars will be an important part of the shift
The whole problem is that you are asking the individual to assume societal costs.
Forcing everybody to drive does that way more than providing viable alternatives and letting people to choose which best suits them does.
Society already pays the costs of car centric infrastructure and it is bankrupting many cities.
I mean, you can kind of understand it since you listed one way it’s better: It’s more convenient for some.
Just today I saw this list of the largest tram networks in history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_tram_and_light_rail_transit_systems_ever
The largest existing one is Melbourne, at a little over 250 km of tramways. Los Angeles at its peak had over 1700 km of tramways.
Truly insane what we tore up. A crime against humanity.
Truly insane what we tore up.
Didn’t know much about this so just looked it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy
Why does every problem ever always boil down to capitalism?
I think many of them simply got converted to sub ways and such.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suburban_and_commuter_rail_systems
A few of them did, but certainly not the majority.
Atlanta’s streetcar system got entirely torn out, paved over and converted to buses. We didn’t get a subway system (on entirely different right-of-way, and much less of it) until decades later.
Similar with Montreal. A whole grid of streetcar lines just got torn up and replaced with buses. We now have a nice metro now at least, but it certainly wasn’t made from pre-existing tramways.
I’m in a small city (Terre Haute, Indiana) which used to have a bunch of streetcars. Then when streetcars got torn up everywhere in the country, they got rid of them. Did they tear up the tracks too? No, they just paved over them. And now, 100 years later, all of those streets are collapsing and it’s costing a huge amount of money to repave them.
Wow, even Terre Haute. Almost went there for college (Rose-Hulman), but decided against it in part because the city itself was so small and sprawling. It must’ve been 1000x livelier back in the streetcar days when things were probably more densely built and less obscenely car-centric.
Also, Trump got elected, so I was like, “Nah, I’m moving to Canada”, which is how I ended up in Montreal instead.
Politics aside, Rose-Hulman is a great school, but if you have any interest in leaving campus, Montreal is a much better bet. Firstly because it’s slightly outside of town and secondly because there’s not all that much to do here.
Yeah, I certainly don’t regret moving to Montreal, as it’s where I met my wife and now where I’m working full-time. But yeah, I got the sense that attending Rose-Hulman would have meant being in a college bubble for 4 years and never doing much outside of that bubble.
In truly large urban areas with a budget and needs, yeah.
In small towns?
In best transatlantic accent The automobile wins the day. Huzzah!
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The combination of those trees and overhead power lines might be problematic in some climates, but overall, I’m all for getting as much greenery into city centers as possible.
This is at Helsinki, Finland. So all kind of weather is present here… Well except hot and dry 😄
On the other hand, there’s a billion saunas around the city if you want hot and dry
If your sauna is hot and dry, you’re doing something wrong 😟
Do we actually have a boulevard like in the pic? I recognized the trams but don’t know a place like in the pic
Sure, Mäkelänkatu at Vallila
Ah. It’s part of that spanking new Kalasatama-Pasila line. I was thinking I haven’t seen such pics before and that’d explain it.
Off camera, there’s a lawn mower driving as fast as it can away from the approaching tram
I’m stuck in stupid America, but my British friends tell me of regular rail delays because of leaves on the rails. I assume that isn’t a problem with these trains, so why is this a problem in the UK?
It’s a big problem for anything using rails. https://youtu.be/ZEuFSw-CMzU?feature=shared
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Maybe they’re just taking a piss? Same for the whole train system shutting down due to a single snowflake.
I’ve been looking into it since I posted that and apparently it makes the rails slippery and the trains have to slow down because of it and trains have to slow down because of it.
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/leaves-line
So I guess the answer is that these trains have to slow down too.
This looks more like a tram than a train and they don’t go fast anyway, so I don’t think they’d need to slow down.
Probably true. I didn’t realize it was a speed issue until I read up on it.
From what I experience on the subway and tram on rainy days is that starting from a stop is also tricky, since steel wheels on steel tracks have not a lot of grip on rainy days, leaves make it worse, so the wheels spin in place and it feels like a slow, rocky start.
So I figure they also drive a little slower overall not miss the stop.
Huh, I’m riding the tram/subway frequently and never noticed any issue when it’s raining.
Maybe your trams have fewer powered axles? I know of a city whose trams solely have powered axles, allowing them to drive on unusually steep gradients in any weather.
My city is pretty flat, so I’d guess that they don’t need all powered axles? In the subways it happens more frequently on the longer trains, that are full, so during peak hours.
Sand
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What’s not to like?
I’m looking at unadulterated communism here and I hate it! Remove the green and the tracks and let honest working people park their lifted F 350 to go grocery shopping and bring little Braendin to school!
Well, more communism for me
Green space being used for vehicles instead of for people, even if it is public transport.
It can and should be both whenever possible.
Unlike roads that need to be completely covered in asphalt, rail only needs, well, rails. The rest can be occupied with greenery, and this is a fantastic example of doing just that.
It is still visually pleasing, still captures CO2, and as a bonus reduces noise coming from the trams. Everybody wins!
Don’t forget that green areas such as this massively cool cities as well (compared to asphalt).
Something which is becoming increasingly important due to climate change.
It can and should be both whenever possible
Roads or tramlines don’t need greenery. It adds nothing.
It would be much better if this place was a promenade for people, with some benches, a playground for kids, maybe a place to sit and have lunch, … and the transportation stuffed out of sight underground, aka a subway.
rail only needs, well, rails
And overhead lines … which trees often interfere with.
You can’t have an as extensive of a subway network as you can a tram network. It’s not trivial to just make tunnels everywhere, and can have consequences for the terrain. In addition, putting many stops on the subway removes the speed advantage, and so is always a trade-off. Good public transit has both.
And green spaces always add something, no matter where they are.
Looking at the way this particular road is constructed, and the age of the trees, I guarantee that this space was a promenade before and the space to build a tramway has been taken from pedestrians (people) not from cars.
My country had green tram lines since Soviet times; trees had more than enough time to grow.
We need promenades; but there where we lie down transportation (and it’s a necessity, you can’t NOT do this), it better look like this, and not as a giant asphalt road.
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One small problem. Pantographs and tree lines.
It is beautiful though.
Eh, it’s nothing that actually having enough budget to fund proper maintenance (e.g. tree pruning) can’t solve. Presumably, any city on-the-ball enough to build decent infrastructure like this in the first place has got that covered.
Proof of concept, trees I agree don’t do too well with electrified infrastructure
me like tramz
devils advocate:
- branches would fall in the tracks
- wild animals might populate and then get harmed.
- not citing pros
- both can probably be mostly solved fairly easily i think
“Would”? The picture isn’t fake, plenty of tram tracks look like this.
-concidering it is in the middle of a city there are basialy no wild animals -this isnt more dangerous to the remaining few than any 4 lane Road -there are city maintenance workers who take care of the trees -during realy bad storms there are also branches on the streets
vs
1 billion different advantages
The actuall biggest problem would be leaves on the rails in autumn.
A small brush system ahead of the actual wheels could take care of some of the tree debris. Even a small to medium sized branch would probably have no effect, the tram is heavy enough to just cleave branches apart. The negative of that is the maintenance teams probably have to clear out stuff that gets stuck under the trams.
There are plenty wild animals in large cities. Foxes, rabits, racoons … Berlin famously has a large boar population. Having a more human friendly city with green tram lines and less car traffic will surely increase animal populations. However I doubt it would be a problem that isn’t easily solvable or is still preferable to the current situation.
The building in the background on the right is a good point of reference https://maps.app.goo.gl/nzUaXj6BJLrFNfe67
yep roads take twice as much space
Looks like a modified pic from Finland
Looks like average Europe
It’s not average even for Helsinki. It’s a brand new line (I thought it was an edited photo) that I had never seen before. Pretty cool but not average in the least.
GIB THAT TRAM
But I do like it
No thanks. I don’t want to be at the mercy of some driver who can and will deny people service however and for whatever reason they please.
By law, they can not.
Ohh yes they can, and they do, all the time. Laws can’t protect people against their behavior because laws are enforced after the fact. Prevention is key here.
No they don’t. I have been taking public transit for decades too, and I’ve never heard of drivers refusing passengers. They just stop at each stop, like that’s their job?
What you have experienced seems to be a local problem, yet you apply it to public transit in general, everywhere.
I think your initial comment is also a strawman, because the meme never suggested banning cars. In fact you can see a car lane on the right. Having trams in a city doesn’t make you be at their mercy, you can instead ride a bike or a car if you want.
Self-driving future doesn’t seem to be that far away, and I imagine it to be even simpler on rails. Either way, the key is to get people off those nasty things they call “cars” and take it from there.
Self driving trains have been around for years
And who cares if they suffer catastrophically as a result?
At this point I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. The picture in the post clearly represents European trams. I have not witnessed one argument with a driver despite using European public transport on a daily basis.
Man, it’s gotta suck being this afraid of everyone.
It sucks being justified in being afraid, yes. And I am very, very justified in my stance, not just by historical standards but through personal experience and experiences of the people I care about. Public transport is the pits and a last resort people are forced to be dependent on for poverty. It CAN’T be the way forward for our people.
You’re entitled to your incorrect opinion. I like mass transit for reasons like removing my need to pay attention for every second of a trip, for much reduced cost per mile, and for meeting/looking at interesting people.
Most people seem to agree. You can’t move a coffee table on it (though I have, my apologies from a now-wisened teenager), but that’s what stuff like car share services can step in on.
Who’s denying you service, and why? The driver is way at the front of the train, what are you on about?
Yep, my lifetime of assault and harassment on public transit is just an incorrect opinion. Fuck my lived experiences and those of everyone else, the only perspective that matters is your own because all that matters is you getting what you want.
Ugh. Just ugh.
Alright grumpy, calm down. I’ll repeat the question: what happened? That’s as much energy as I’m willing to give the weak crying.
Literally 1.7 billion rides on the NYC subway system in 2019, it seems to work great for us. I dress in weird shiny rubber clothes sometimes while going to a party or whatever, I get looks of curiosity or derision from other passengers sometimes, and I don’t give a shit. Are you just that sensitive?
Wow, holy shit, your best response is childish name calling and tone policing.
Everyone, this is what abusive people do when they are willing to be immoral to get what they want. When faced with a legitimate grievance they can’t refute, they attack the person, in this case in the most blatantly childish way possible.
Basically he knows forcing people to use public transit will cause innocent people to suffer more violence but he doesn’t care about that, he only cares about his feelings and he’s willing to force you to be beaten, assaulted, even killed to get his way.
Think of your daughters and wives who would be groped, beaten, sexually assaulted, and murdered in the name of appeasing this hopeless retard, and then ignore him.
I don’t agree with your conclusion that public transit is responsible for assault and murder.
What you are essentially suggesting is breaking up society and isolating everyone so people can’t harm each other. That is an extreme solution to this problem
You also forget about all the people suffering from cars: thousands of deaths each year (compared to how many in subways?) from accidents and pollution.
Bro I’m upvoting this because of how hilariously sad this is 😂
Anyway, no biggie. Can’t answer what happened, a simple question.
Don’t come to big cities, we’re gonna charge you to drive your lifted dangling nutz grocery getter below 59th st, and laugh our asses off at your limp open carry chicken pistol. Real men and women live here, with and for each other.
Stay in Idaho or whatever, enjoy your “I’m scaewed” life 😂
