Here’s a bare-bones answer to get whether or not you’re a right-winger or Left-winger. I emphasize again, this is a bare-bones answer that’s leaving out a lot of other stuff.
Who should have ownership over the means of production, or Capital Goods if you want to use non-marxist lingo. If you say the working class should have ownership over the means of production then you’re left-wing. If you say capitalists should have ownership over the means of production then you’re right-wing.
Yeah I can get behind this, and I’d say you’re right that it’s the bare-bones definition of the economic left vs right divide.
But then you have people who will look at market socialists, anarchists, or some other brand of leftism and call them secret fascists or something like that. It’s my experience (and yours may differ) that MLs are eager to insist that theirs is the only way and dismiss the rest.
Not all MLs are this dogmatic. But when a leftist is this dogmatic, they always seem to be ML
There is not a valid distinction between economic left and political left, or economic right and political right.
There is the left and its various tendencies and ideologies (anarchists, communists, MLs, etc.) And the right and its various tendencies (liberals, conservatives, libertarians, fascists etc.)
But then you have people who will look at market socialists, anarchists, or some other brand of leftism and call them secret fascists or something like that. It’s my experience (and yours may differ) that MLs are eager to insist that theirs is the only way and dismiss the rest
What you’re describing is the analysis of Marxism-Leninism on other socialist tendencies based off of the historical materialist end results of their respective ideologies. A very simple example of this would be is how Marxists would prod anarchists as being more idealist over materialist over the fact that the more idealist members of the anarchist faction advocate for the immediate and total abolishment of the penal system can’t reconciliate the fact that anarchists reestablished the penal system during the Spanish Civil War on their turf due to the material conditions they faced forcing them to make that decision. There’s a lot more to this discussion that’s being left out with plenty of worthwhile perspectives from all Left factions on the civil war in regards to this and much more.
It’s in this regard that marxists will ruthlessly critique all ideological threads and each other all in the name of finding the most materially realistic path to Socialism within their respective home countries - and historically, revolution is the only means to the goal of establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat and a scientific socialist society.
fake Marxists who ignore the basics of marxist? heck yeah we hate them. I’ve yet to see any fake anarchists or MLs on hexbear that werent immediately banned tho
The -oid suffix, as an insult, has a long history of ableism and racism. Maybe you should work on being better instead of projecting your bigotry by appropriating Marxist-flavored gotchas
Im looking through several hate speech websites and I’m not seeing a single thing about what you saying, anyway. Just a single reddit post (ofc) with no linked information.
I am sorry (to myself I guess) for using bigoted language (… to myself? like who am I hurting here besides using language that targets me) and I would love for more information on the subject. If I’m wrong, im happy to take the L and throw such language away.
but here revised:
You are a fake leftist that simps for imperialist and colonialist organizations founded in collaboration with nazis. You are useless to the worldwide movement and no matter how hard you work, you will be doing so in the wrong direction, and would be as useless as you are right now. You use problems of people far worse off than yourself as a shield to help ignore everything you do wrong when you should be using it to look at yourself. You “don’t care how anyone identifies” until it is used against you. You ignore the actual fascists and racists because they would not harm you, and you know it. Go take your nonsense to someone who would actually care, you sorry excuse for a leftist. Your liberalism will never be accepted anywhere that has anything more than surface level political knowledge, and that is completely fine by me.
I think that’s awful an immature behavior.
When you fight idiocy with aggression (at least on social media) you just get idiots who think they must be right and start truth social or something
I find that a lot of crazy right wingers do it to “own the libs” or get a rise out of their supposed enemies.
It’s all just a sports game to people like that.
If you ignore them they get bored and stop being so staunch in their awful beliefs. When you fight with them it makes them feel like they’re right. You end up forcing them to rationalize every shitty position.
Almost nobody posts on the internet trying to challenge and reconsider their beliefs, so it’s not like you’re going to change their mind anyway.
Does ignoring the fascists make them go away? Please.
If you ignore them they get bored and stop being so staunch in their awful beliefs. When you fight with them it makes them feel like they’re right. You end up forcing them to rationalize every shitty position.
So now you’re accusing us of making fascists more fascist, as an excuse for your ridiculous theory of just ignoring fascism.
like you’re going to change their mind anyway.
Its not even about changing their minds. Its about forcing them out of shared spaces. Fascists should driven out, shamed, harassed, and redacted.
What you think is lib bullshit that gets your spaces infiltrated and taken over by fascists and reactionaries.
You want to ignore them fine, but don’t condescend to people who confront them and drive them out of shared spaces as if you have a more “mature” solution. Your solution is literally “if i close my eyes they go away” baby logic
We actually study history and read shit. Like I just finished reading Long Walk to Freedom & Armed and Dangerous, both are a fairly good firsthand on how “fascists” respond to non-violence and only start to have reservations when the oppressed shoot back.
It’s just polarizing.
You’re just making people more staunch in their beliefs or just annoying people who would rather not deal with aggression (like myself)
If your goal is to drive people away and make a space where everyone just agrees with you all the time then it’s effective.
Polarization is clarifying. It drives away fascists which protects their targets and makes spaces safe for them. It also exposes people who would more readily share spaces with fascists and just ignore them than with the people who oppose them.
If it drives away people like you who ignore fascism, yet want to argue that opposing it is immature, then that’s a bonus
When you fight with them it makes them feel like they’re right. You end up forcing them to rationalize every shitty position.
Literal fascist talking point. “Look what you made me do”
I mean that’s what I think, at least
Investigate before you start thinking next time. Are trans children out there looking for fights just by existing or is your belief that fascists need to be provoked first founded on nothing but bullshit?
Yknow I’m talking about on social media platforms, right?
Frothing at the mouth raging at someone on a social media platform doesn’t do anything but cause more radicalization, so I just ignore people instead. I don’t spend most of my life fighting with people on the internet over politics.
I don’t spend most of my life fighting with people on the internet over politics.
You won’t push back on fascists, but you can’t shut up when pushing back against people who believe in pushing back fascism.
cause more radicalization
Its been pointed out multiple times now that this is literally a fascist talking point. Pushing back against fascism is not what makes people fascist. In fact its how we protect the targets of fascism on shared spaces online or off.
As has also been pointed out to you some people just existing is seen as an incitement by fascists. What are they supposed to do? They can’t just ignore threats and the invalidation of their humanity. That you can shut your eyes to that says a lot about you.
Great to hear that the targets of fascism “can do whatever they want.” They don’t have a choice in the matter of being a target, unlike you obviously.
I’ve already told you this but our goal isn’t to change fascists minds. Its to drive them away, to shame them. To not allow them to spew their bullshit or attack their targets without resistance.
Pushing fascists out of our spaces is the only way people whose existence is targeted by fascism can actually “do whatever they want.”
Regardless of handwringing about it, the fact remains that we’ve driven out and proud fascists off of lemmy instances that we’re federated with. The simple existence of hexbear pulls the Lemmy overton window so far left that social democrats are now the right wingers - this is a good thing.
Almost like the very aggressive communists have a nose for right wing nut jobs and relentlessly hound them until they log out
Which sounds great until you realize that many of them define right wing nut jobs as anyone who’s not a Marxist-Leninist
Edit: LMAO exhibit A below me. “We’re not sectarian, they’re just not real leftists.” Yeah guys, you’re doing exactly what I said
Here’s a bare-bones answer to get whether or not you’re a right-winger or Left-winger. I emphasize again, this is a bare-bones answer that’s leaving out a lot of other stuff.
Who should have ownership over the means of production, or Capital Goods if you want to use non-marxist lingo. If you say the working class should have ownership over the means of production then you’re left-wing. If you say capitalists should have ownership over the means of production then you’re right-wing.
Yeah I can get behind this, and I’d say you’re right that it’s the bare-bones definition of the economic left vs right divide.
But then you have people who will look at market socialists, anarchists, or some other brand of leftism and call them secret fascists or something like that. It’s my experience (and yours may differ) that MLs are eager to insist that theirs is the only way and dismiss the rest.
Not all MLs are this dogmatic. But when a leftist is this dogmatic, they always seem to be ML
There is not a valid distinction between economic left and political left, or economic right and political right.
There is the left and its various tendencies and ideologies (anarchists, communists, MLs, etc.) And the right and its various tendencies (liberals, conservatives, libertarians, fascists etc.)
What you’re describing is the analysis of Marxism-Leninism on other socialist tendencies based off of the historical materialist end results of their respective ideologies. A very simple example of this would be is how Marxists would prod anarchists as being more idealist over materialist over the fact that the more idealist members of the anarchist faction advocate for the immediate and total abolishment of the penal system can’t reconciliate the fact that anarchists reestablished the penal system during the Spanish Civil War on their turf due to the material conditions they faced forcing them to make that decision. There’s a lot more to this discussion that’s being left out with plenty of worthwhile perspectives from all Left factions on the civil war in regards to this and much more.
It’s in this regard that marxists will ruthlessly critique all ideological threads and each other all in the name of finding the most materially realistic path to Socialism within their respective home countries - and historically, revolution is the only means to the goal of establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat and a scientific socialist society.
fake Marxists who ignore the basics of marxist? heck yeah we hate them. I’ve yet to see any fake anarchists or MLs on hexbear that werent immediately banned tho
You’re allowed to be most branches of socialist or anarchist without us considering you right wing, we are a non-sectarian space.
In much of human behavior there tends to be a divide between what we say and what we do. This is no exception
Actually it is, we enforce our anti-sectarian rules.
You got a trite truism for every time you say shit without investigating it and are told you’re wrong about it?
we are highly anti sectarian, youre just a natoid anarcho bidenist, not a leftist
The -oid suffix, as an insult, has a long history of ableism and racism. Maybe you should work on being better instead of projecting your bigotry by appropriating Marxist-flavored gotchas
Im an autistic trans person, but guess some NT Cishet would know more about bigotry than me
I don’t care how anyone identifies, you’re using bigoted language
You’re telling me huh
Im looking through several hate speech websites and I’m not seeing a single thing about what you saying, anyway. Just a single reddit post (ofc) with no linked information.
I am sorry (to myself I guess) for using bigoted language (… to myself? like who am I hurting here besides using language that targets me) and I would love for more information on the subject. If I’m wrong, im happy to take the L and throw such language away.
but here revised:
You are a fake leftist that simps for imperialist and colonialist organizations founded in collaboration with nazis. You are useless to the worldwide movement and no matter how hard you work, you will be doing so in the wrong direction, and would be as useless as you are right now. You use problems of people far worse off than yourself as a shield to help ignore everything you do wrong when you should be using it to look at yourself. You “don’t care how anyone identifies” until it is used against you. You ignore the actual fascists and racists because they would not harm you, and you know it. Go take your nonsense to someone who would actually care, you sorry excuse for a leftist. Your liberalism will never be accepted anywhere that has anything more than surface level political knowledge, and that is completely fine by me.
The people I see deploying this take the most are the same people who think Democrats are communists
If your upset about your ideological proximity to conservatives, it sounds like a you problem
These are not intellectually serious people.
I think that’s awful an immature behavior. When you fight idiocy with aggression (at least on social media) you just get idiots who think they must be right and start truth social or something
How do you deal with fascists? Facts and logic in the free marketplace of ideas™?
I usually just ignore them.
I find that a lot of crazy right wingers do it to “own the libs” or get a rise out of their supposed enemies. It’s all just a sports game to people like that.
If you ignore them they get bored and stop being so staunch in their awful beliefs. When you fight with them it makes them feel like they’re right. You end up forcing them to rationalize every shitty position.
Almost nobody posts on the internet trying to challenge and reconsider their beliefs, so it’s not like you’re going to change their mind anyway.
I mean that’s what I think, at least
Does ignoring the fascists make them go away? Please.
So now you’re accusing us of making fascists more fascist, as an excuse for your ridiculous theory of just ignoring fascism.
Its not even about changing their minds. Its about forcing them out of shared spaces. Fascists should driven out, shamed, harassed, and redacted.
What you think is lib bullshit that gets your spaces infiltrated and taken over by fascists and reactionaries.
You want to ignore them fine, but don’t condescend to people who confront them and drive them out of shared spaces as if you have a more “mature” solution. Your solution is literally “if i close my eyes they go away” baby logic
And here we see an aggressive communist in the wild. You have a good day, dude
You said a bunch a bullshit and got called on it. Agressive much tankie.
Fuck all the way off dude
Awe well I still hope you have a good day.
Prime example of libs believing in nothing but self assured smugness and civility. And in the wild no less
We actually study history and read shit. Like I just finished reading Long Walk to Freedom & Armed and Dangerous, both are a fairly good firsthand on how “fascists” respond to non-violence and only start to have reservations when the oppressed shoot back.
Oh and
“The real fascists are the fascists who won’t let me fascist 😭”
Cool story bro
Why is aggressive a bad thing?
It’s just polarizing. You’re just making people more staunch in their beliefs or just annoying people who would rather not deal with aggression (like myself)
If your goal is to drive people away and make a space where everyone just agrees with you all the time then it’s effective.
Polarization is clarifying. It drives away fascists which protects their targets and makes spaces safe for them. It also exposes people who would more readily share spaces with fascists and just ignore them than with the people who oppose them.
If it drives away people like you who ignore fascism, yet want to argue that opposing it is immature, then that’s a bonus
Fascism has only ever been defeated through violence, not through “changing people’s minds”
You save your hatred for those scary tankies because you have not shut up yet.
Literal fascist talking point. “Look what you made me do”
Investigate before you start thinking next time. Are trans children out there looking for fights just by existing or is your belief that fascists need to be provoked first founded on nothing but bullshit?
Thanks for ignoring the people who want us dead, very mature and polite of you!!!
Yknow I’m talking about on social media platforms, right?
Frothing at the mouth raging at someone on a social media platform doesn’t do anything but cause more radicalization, so I just ignore people instead. I don’t spend most of my life fighting with people on the internet over politics.
Are you deadass actually suggesting that people are transphobic ableist nazis because communists go after nazis online?
or are you saying that it radicalizes more people into avid antifacsist communists, which is an unambiguously good thing (unless youre on team nazi)
This is a real question, please answer.
You won’t push back on fascists, but you can’t shut up when pushing back against people who believe in pushing back fascism.
Its been pointed out multiple times now that this is literally a fascist talking point. Pushing back against fascism is not what makes people fascist. In fact its how we protect the targets of fascism on shared spaces online or off.
As has also been pointed out to you some people just existing is seen as an incitement by fascists. What are they supposed to do? They can’t just ignore threats and the invalidation of their humanity. That you can shut your eyes to that says a lot about you.
They can do whatever they want.
I don’t care what other people do, I just ignore people I don’t think are worth failing with.
And yeah pass judgement if you want, but how I choose to deal with people on the internet is up to me.
Yeah, and you’re a bad person for choosing to act this way. Points for owning it though tbh
And yet here you are failing.
Great to hear that the targets of fascism “can do whatever they want.” They don’t have a choice in the matter of being a target, unlike you obviously.
I’ve already told you this but our goal isn’t to change fascists minds. Its to drive them away, to shame them. To not allow them to spew their bullshit or attack their targets without resistance.
Pushing fascists out of our spaces is the only way people whose existence is targeted by fascism can actually “do whatever they want.”
Regardless of handwringing about it, the fact remains that we’ve driven out and proud fascists off of lemmy instances that we’re federated with. The simple existence of hexbear pulls the Lemmy overton window so far left that social democrats are now the right wingers - this is a good thing.
The most maturity obsessed internet people, like you, act like smug adult children while policing the maturity of others.
Sure, lib
Are you fucking kidding me m8?
This shit is ridiculous, look at what you posted!!
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