And you know what’s the worst part. It’s the owner refusing to pay him proper wages that forces this tipping culture in the first place. It’s absolutely atrocious and we shouldn’t even be responsible for making sure they get a living wage. That should always be up to the owner
The owner will 100% always raise wages versus just pack up shop and go out of business entirely if forced. But not out of the goodness of their heart lol.
Yep. California pays their servers the state minimum wage of $15 an hour. They still get tips, and basically no restaurants went out of business when they “suddenly had to pay minimum wage.”
And to the few that did go out of business, I don’t have much sympathy. If you’re unable to run your business in such a way they you make money while paying minimum wage to your employees, go find another job because you weren’t very good at running a restaurant.
If you want to protest the owner’s business model then boycott businesses that have tips. But refusing to tip at a tipped business is still giving 100℅ of your money to the owner, supporting their business, and leaving the employees out to dry. It’s not morally righteous, it’s cheap.
For the downvoters: Any argument against this? He’s clearly right, if you patronize the restaraunt they still get paid and they still don’t have to pay the server shit. “Not tipping” that person didn’t change the culture, it didn’t even hurt the business, the business responsible for this shit to begin with, who got their money. Our only recourse is then to A) Stop eating out all together until the industry collapses and rebuilds tipless, or B) Only go to “no tip” restaraunts if there are any in your area. Any of this half-assed “well the industry needs to just change but I’m not going to do my part to help, I’m just gonna piss off servers and do nothing” bullshit won’t accomplish anything.
Servers want the status quo because they make more money expecting the rest of us to pay 20-30% markup as a tip with the risk of getting stiffed from time to time. Let them demand whatever they feel is a compensatory wage for their time just like the rest of us. They were fine when the scales tipped their way.
IMO servers sold themselves down the river because it allowed them to make more money than back of house staff. Now that everyone is getting tired of this shit it’s the responsibility of the customer to negotiate them a better position? Laughable.
As someone that worked the kitchen and made less than servers while doing as much if not more work, hard pass. Servers are just mad people are getting tired of this shit and they can’t easily double or triple what the person that actually made the food makes.
There’s a difference between “responsibility” and “reality.” Should politicians for instance vote to give themselves term limits and stem their own insider trading? Yes. But if you expect that to happen, “wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which fills up first.”
Similarly, should servers fight for higher wages? Yes. But in reality they have no power in this situation, the customers have more. Even if they unionized, you’re arguing here for crossing the picket lines and continuing to support those struck businesses who then make money to hire scabbers, and wondering why nothing is changing. Even if you’re right and all this falls on servers to magically fix, you’re still then part of the problem. You’d arguably be even more of a problem then.
You may not want to make personal sacrifices to change a system that you want changed, but anything worth doing takes hard work and sometimes sacrifice, it just is what it is.
Go get a better job if you’re unhappy with the responsibility of fighting for your earnings as a server. If nobody chooses to work serving jobs… then restaurants would have to do something more to compensate to bring in servers. Instead servers like the status quo because they make more money by culturally shaming people into donating to them.
they have no power in this situation
Quit. Find better employment. Go be a cook, though they don’t usually make as much as servers despite actually making the food. Funny how that works.
anything worth doing takes hard work and sometimes sacrifice
Just not by the server though right? It’s the customers responsibility to manage the terms of employment for the hapless server in your scenario?
Go get a better job if you’re unhappy with the responsibility of fighting for your earnings as a server.
I did, I was chased out by people like you not tipping, so you did win on that one, even though I’m the only one who suffered for it, the business is doing just fine. Congrats, if your goal was to make it so that I could barely afford rent and food you did a good job, now get to work on making the poor sap who took my place suffer until he quits, and then the one who’ll take his place, and the one who’ll take his…
If nobody chooses to work serving jobs… then restaurants would have to do something more to compensate to bring in servers
Like have you order off a touchscreen? As long as they’re able to find a way to make money off of you they will, and the corporations will just cut out the already thin human element, it’ll be a screen at the table and foodrunners at applebees type shitholes. Most mom and pop places will either just close or become counter service style restaraunts with no servers, like how they run Chipotle. Some will raise prices and try, and hopefully make it, but only time can tell. Of course you’d have fine dining actually pay employees well because they can afford to and their customers can take the price hike and an air of exclusivity to being served by a human rather than a machine.
It’s the customers responsibility to manage the terms of employment for the hapless server in your scenario?
Well, no, I suppose not. If you want restaraunts to not just all be mcdonalds and chipotle clones, then you can continue patronizing them undermining the efforts of servers who do quit, or would theoretically unionize, and there would be no “consequences” from this as you’re in support of souless corporate food giants and counter service only. If however you did want servers then yes, as the restaraunts source of income you would then share in the responsibility in participating in a boycott as they do in either quitting or striking.
I just think it’s crazy that people believe if Steve owns Steve’s Place and Dan works as a server, hurting Dan to spite Steve while still paying Steve the price he requested does anything lmao. It doesn’t and never will. Dan may quit and Cheryl will take his place, then it’ll just be the counter with Bob behind it handing you your card that says “65,” then “Screen” will take his place and the cook will just start yelling “SIXTY FIVE” and having you grab it, don’t forget forks, they’re next to the vending machine.
Funny you assume I don’t tip. I do, and well, unless the service is dog shit. Which is why I know how much more things cost because of tipping. The problem is instead of it being a bonus for quality of service, its become the expectation to make up for the fact that servers choose not to throw their lot in with the rest of the staff and argue for living wages collectively.
Servers have been privileged with making 2-3x more such that the idea of making what the kitchen staff does is seen as being abused. You just don’t want to accept that the employer abuses you, and instead you abuse the customer with your expectations of having them supplement the poor wage you took expecting the customer will make up for it. Meanwhile the kitchen staff has always been abused but you didn’t mind because you got yours. Maybe work together and demand a better lot?
And here’s the scenario you didn’t care to consider. You quit, they don’t get servers because they don’t pay well, and the business shuts down making room for another that can try again with a better model. Dan can seek an employer that doesn’t treat him as a slave to minimize their costs, and Steve can choose to serve food himself or pay someone appropriately to do the work or close up shop. None of which relies on an expectation of a tip because the wage increase you collectively bargained for is baked into the price. So then when a tip is deserved it can be given, but there is no expectation of 20% for refilling my water at a buffet that I served myself at, or less.
I appreciate the discussion, hope you have a good day bud.
Funny you assume I don’t tip. I do, and well, unless the service is dog shit.
Well duh, you’re so adamant against tipping I figured you practiced what you preached. Kinda odd that you do tbh with all this arguing against the practice.
The problem is instead of it being a bonus for quality of service,
Actually, I’d argue that:
I do, and well, unless the service is dog shit.
Means that tipping is still correlated to quality of service. To your point actually, when people used to stiff me for giving them great service, I would be thinking “what the fuck did I do to you? My service was great, I sped like a bitch to get here I know I wasn’t slow, I went like 10mph over (15 is reckless driving)” until of course they just order 2x a week, taking up valuable time I could be getting tipped, but nooooo that dude doesn’t have $3 to let me know he appreciates fast service, so I guess he doesn’t care how long it takes.
its become the expectation to make up for the fact that servers choose not to throw their lot in with the rest of the staff and argue for living wages collectively.
Irrelevant. You would just cross the picket line undermining all efforts those people make. Until the day comes where the customers strike with the bottom-rung empliyees you seem to think have all the power no ammount of striking will change it.
Servers have been privileged with making 2-3x more such that the idea of making what the kitchen staff does is seen as being abused. You just don’t want to accept that the employer abuses you, and instead you abuse the customer with your expectations of having them supplement the poor wage you took expecting the customer will make up for it. Meanwhile the kitchen staff has always been abused but you didn’t mind because you got yours. Maybe work together and demand a better lot?
Idk where you work, but this isn’t the case where I worked. Idk if it’s egocentrism making you think everyone is the same as you, or what, but sorry to break it to you my cook made more than I did, and I got $8/hr plus tips, which in my area is unheard of for drivers, ususally it’s $7.25 in store and like $5 out of store. And another thing, I was using my own car (as delivery drivers usually do) so I had to worry about my gas and extra wear and tear on my car, another reason to give the nice man who just drove your drunk lazy ass a pizza like three whole dollars (I know, we’re asking for SO MUCH, such a burden huh?)
And here’s the scenario you didn’t care to consider. You quit, they don’t get servers because they don’t pay well, and the business shuts down making room for another that can try again with a better model.
Or the business that opens up is the exact same and the cycle continues because you keep patronizing the businesses that you feel have unethical practices. Why does the business have to do something anti-gay or anti-trans or racist before people boycott it? Aren’t your economic principles also important? Not important enough it would seem.
refilling my water at a buffet that I served myself at, or less.
Where the fuck do you live lmao?! Buffets have the damn soda stream machines, usually the big red Coke one with all the flavorings you can choose, and you pay at the counter. What fucking “buffet” has servers, “Warren Buffet?!” Do they come talk to you like John Pinette lmao? I’d believe the counter has a tip jar or the receipt has a line for tips, but I don’t for a second believe they have a server. I mean, for what?! “Hi welcome to our buffet, I’m Julie. This is usually when I’d take your order, but since this is a buffet you’ve already paid and now are expected to serve yourself, my being here is meaningless. How 'bout them Steelers huh?”
And you know what’s the worst part. It’s the owner refusing to pay him proper wages that forces this tipping culture in the first place. It’s absolutely atrocious and we shouldn’t even be responsible for making sure they get a living wage. That should always be up to the owner
The owner will 100% always raise wages versus just pack up shop and go out of business entirely if forced. But not out of the goodness of their heart lol.
Yep. California pays their servers the state minimum wage of $15 an hour. They still get tips, and basically no restaurants went out of business when they “suddenly had to pay minimum wage.”
And to the few that did go out of business, I don’t have much sympathy. If you’re unable to run your business in such a way they you make money while paying minimum wage to your employees, go find another job because you weren’t very good at running a restaurant.
If you want to protest the owner’s business model then boycott businesses that have tips. But refusing to tip at a tipped business is still giving 100℅ of your money to the owner, supporting their business, and leaving the employees out to dry. It’s not morally righteous, it’s cheap.
Downvoted for being correct I see.
For the downvoters: Any argument against this? He’s clearly right, if you patronize the restaraunt they still get paid and they still don’t have to pay the server shit. “Not tipping” that person didn’t change the culture, it didn’t even hurt the business, the business responsible for this shit to begin with, who got their money. Our only recourse is then to A) Stop eating out all together until the industry collapses and rebuilds tipless, or B) Only go to “no tip” restaraunts if there are any in your area. Any of this half-assed “well the industry needs to just change but I’m not going to do my part to help, I’m just gonna piss off servers and do nothing” bullshit won’t accomplish anything.
Servers want the status quo because they make more money expecting the rest of us to pay 20-30% markup as a tip with the risk of getting stiffed from time to time. Let them demand whatever they feel is a compensatory wage for their time just like the rest of us. They were fine when the scales tipped their way.
IMO servers sold themselves down the river because it allowed them to make more money than back of house staff. Now that everyone is getting tired of this shit it’s the responsibility of the customer to negotiate them a better position? Laughable.
As someone that worked the kitchen and made less than servers while doing as much if not more work, hard pass. Servers are just mad people are getting tired of this shit and they can’t easily double or triple what the person that actually made the food makes.
There’s a difference between “responsibility” and “reality.” Should politicians for instance vote to give themselves term limits and stem their own insider trading? Yes. But if you expect that to happen, “wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which fills up first.”
Similarly, should servers fight for higher wages? Yes. But in reality they have no power in this situation, the customers have more. Even if they unionized, you’re arguing here for crossing the picket lines and continuing to support those struck businesses who then make money to hire scabbers, and wondering why nothing is changing. Even if you’re right and all this falls on servers to magically fix, you’re still then part of the problem. You’d arguably be even more of a problem then.
You may not want to make personal sacrifices to change a system that you want changed, but anything worth doing takes hard work and sometimes sacrifice, it just is what it is.
Go get a better job if you’re unhappy with the responsibility of fighting for your earnings as a server. If nobody chooses to work serving jobs… then restaurants would have to do something more to compensate to bring in servers. Instead servers like the status quo because they make more money by culturally shaming people into donating to them.
Quit. Find better employment. Go be a cook, though they don’t usually make as much as servers despite actually making the food. Funny how that works.
Just not by the server though right? It’s the customers responsibility to manage the terms of employment for the hapless server in your scenario?
I did, I was chased out by people like you not tipping, so you did win on that one, even though I’m the only one who suffered for it, the business is doing just fine. Congrats, if your goal was to make it so that I could barely afford rent and food you did a good job, now get to work on making the poor sap who took my place suffer until he quits, and then the one who’ll take his place, and the one who’ll take his…
Like have you order off a touchscreen? As long as they’re able to find a way to make money off of you they will, and the corporations will just cut out the already thin human element, it’ll be a screen at the table and foodrunners at applebees type shitholes. Most mom and pop places will either just close or become counter service style restaraunts with no servers, like how they run Chipotle. Some will raise prices and try, and hopefully make it, but only time can tell. Of course you’d have fine dining actually pay employees well because they can afford to and their customers can take the price hike and an air of exclusivity to being served by a human rather than a machine.
Well, no, I suppose not. If you want restaraunts to not just all be mcdonalds and chipotle clones, then you can continue patronizing them undermining the efforts of servers who do quit, or would theoretically unionize, and there would be no “consequences” from this as you’re in support of souless corporate food giants and counter service only. If however you did want servers then yes, as the restaraunts source of income you would then share in the responsibility in participating in a boycott as they do in either quitting or striking.
I just think it’s crazy that people believe if Steve owns Steve’s Place and Dan works as a server, hurting Dan to spite Steve while still paying Steve the price he requested does anything lmao. It doesn’t and never will. Dan may quit and Cheryl will take his place, then it’ll just be the counter with Bob behind it handing you your card that says “65,” then “Screen” will take his place and the cook will just start yelling “SIXTY FIVE” and having you grab it, don’t forget forks, they’re next to the vending machine.
Funny you assume I don’t tip. I do, and well, unless the service is dog shit. Which is why I know how much more things cost because of tipping. The problem is instead of it being a bonus for quality of service, its become the expectation to make up for the fact that servers choose not to throw their lot in with the rest of the staff and argue for living wages collectively.
Servers have been privileged with making 2-3x more such that the idea of making what the kitchen staff does is seen as being abused. You just don’t want to accept that the employer abuses you, and instead you abuse the customer with your expectations of having them supplement the poor wage you took expecting the customer will make up for it. Meanwhile the kitchen staff has always been abused but you didn’t mind because you got yours. Maybe work together and demand a better lot?
And here’s the scenario you didn’t care to consider. You quit, they don’t get servers because they don’t pay well, and the business shuts down making room for another that can try again with a better model. Dan can seek an employer that doesn’t treat him as a slave to minimize their costs, and Steve can choose to serve food himself or pay someone appropriately to do the work or close up shop. None of which relies on an expectation of a tip because the wage increase you collectively bargained for is baked into the price. So then when a tip is deserved it can be given, but there is no expectation of 20% for refilling my water at a buffet that I served myself at, or less.
I appreciate the discussion, hope you have a good day bud.
Well duh, you’re so adamant against tipping I figured you practiced what you preached. Kinda odd that you do tbh with all this arguing against the practice.
Actually, I’d argue that:
Means that tipping is still correlated to quality of service. To your point actually, when people used to stiff me for giving them great service, I would be thinking “what the fuck did I do to you? My service was great, I sped like a bitch to get here I know I wasn’t slow, I went like 10mph over (15 is reckless driving)” until of course they just order 2x a week, taking up valuable time I could be getting tipped, but nooooo that dude doesn’t have $3 to let me know he appreciates fast service, so I guess he doesn’t care how long it takes.
Irrelevant. You would just cross the picket line undermining all efforts those people make. Until the day comes where the customers strike with the bottom-rung empliyees you seem to think have all the power no ammount of striking will change it.
Idk where you work, but this isn’t the case where I worked. Idk if it’s egocentrism making you think everyone is the same as you, or what, but sorry to break it to you my cook made more than I did, and I got $8/hr plus tips, which in my area is unheard of for drivers, ususally it’s $7.25 in store and like $5 out of store. And another thing, I was using my own car (as delivery drivers usually do) so I had to worry about my gas and extra wear and tear on my car, another reason to give the nice man who just drove your drunk lazy ass a pizza like three whole dollars (I know, we’re asking for SO MUCH, such a burden huh?)
Or the business that opens up is the exact same and the cycle continues because you keep patronizing the businesses that you feel have unethical practices. Why does the business have to do something anti-gay or anti-trans or racist before people boycott it? Aren’t your economic principles also important? Not important enough it would seem.
Where the fuck do you live lmao?! Buffets have the damn soda stream machines, usually the big red Coke one with all the flavorings you can choose, and you pay at the counter. What fucking “buffet” has servers, “Warren Buffet?!” Do they come talk to you like John Pinette lmao? I’d believe the counter has a tip jar or the receipt has a line for tips, but I don’t for a second believe they have a server. I mean, for what?! “Hi welcome to our buffet, I’m Julie. This is usually when I’d take your order, but since this is a buffet you’ve already paid and now are expected to serve yourself, my being here is meaningless. How 'bout them Steelers huh?”
You too.