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Really makes you think about why Hamas is so radicalized, doesn’t it? It’s not like you can pull a Muslim out of a hat and radicalize them. People in a stable, healthy, and fair socioeconomic position do not see violence as an answer. People who live under constant oppression, inequality, and fear do.
And the irony is that Israel allowed Hamas to be funded by Arabic countries 25 years ago when it was a way to weaken Arafat and the PLO. Everything in this area is fucked beyond parody. No authority on either side has any idea about morality.
Netanyahu actually said something very similar, that the best way to destabilise the Palestinian Authority was to finance Hamas.
The same parallels with how the US funded what would later become Al Qaeda to fuck with the Soviets. Then they did 9/11.
People who live under constant oppression, inequality, and fear do.
Having a religion that claims that you’re the greatest people on this planet helps.
edit You guys think that it doesn’t help, or that Abrahamic religions aren’t saying that? Help me understand.
You’re describing roughly half the planet
A remarkably small amount of people on this planet think they should be, no, make that deserve to be living in the area where biblical / quranic time people lived. But yeah, the amount of people who think they’re the greatest people is probably much more than just half.
Even I may have been known to make that mistake every now and other second.
I don’t give a shit personally. Dont fucking murder and kidnap civilians. There isn’t a justification
They arent justifying hamas, they are highlighting how israel actively created the environment that gave hamas the capability to do this.
Say that to Israel. The average age of the population in Gaza is 18. Unless there was a population boom of unprecedented proportions 18 years ago. (There wasn’t) Something seriously wrong is going on.
I don’t support Hamas’s attack. But Israel isn’t the victim. The people of Palestine and even Israel are the victims. And ultimately, the government of Israel is the aggressor. They could stop this. But they don’t. They just make excuses and dehumanize the Palestinians. Then act surprised when they get the response they want.
The average age of the population in Gaza is 18.
Of note: The blockade of Gaza is going on for a good 16 years, now. About half of Gazans grew up under that regime and they’re just about reaching fighting age now, already having gone through “what might I possibly be in the future” age and, well, there’s not exactly many options are there.
Exactly. Regardless of who started this. At some point someone’s going to have to be the bigger person. And unfortunately that can literally only be israel. And they are absolutely refusing. No matter how good or bad people in guys that are Palestinians in general behave. They are just counted phones to Israel and many other Middle Eastern powers.
For both, they fucking deserve each other
No. They really don’t. It’s pretty fucked up what Hamas just did. But it didn’t come from a vacuum. Those people and their families have lived there for centuries. Before a bunch of Western powers came in occupied, and then decided to kick them out of their own territories. Off their own lands. Give it to people who hadn’t been there in living memory at the very best. Violence begets violence and it’s been that way ever since the start of this situation. Unfortunately however. Israel is going to have to be the bigger person here. Because they’re not the ones trapped in a blockade of Israel’s design with the help of other Middle Eastern Nations.
I don’t think any sane person is justifying the horrors committed by Hamas. But they seem to be somewhat logical consequences to the last 30 (60?) years of fuckery in the area.
Israel has been forced into existence and had to be extra tough to continue to exist when all its neighbours were looking for a quick genocide, Gaza is basically an open sky prison, the whole world is toying with the concepts of religion and nationalism in the area, everybody in the area is getting increasingly radicalised, major powers have been having proxy wars around here, politicians are playing 4D snooker to stay in power by any means necessary… The list goes on and on
More like 100 years. The british began mass immigrating Jews to Israel back in 1923.
Are you talking about Israel or Hamas? Because they’ve both killed a lot of civilians. Israel has actually killed more.
Source BBC News on the hostage situation “The focus appears to be on a swap involving women and children - including Israelis and other nationals - in an exchange for Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails.”
Even if that was the intention, there’s witness accounts of people being raped and tortured before being murdered. We have videos of women with bloodied crotches being paraded. There’s a video of men sitting and spitting on a dead woman’s body. Nothing justifies that
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Thank you for stating the obvious.
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This is the second thread I’ve seen today with your awful takes. Probably worth a block, but I don’t believe in it. Just know that you’re super fucking wrong.
I get it but overall with this situation I don’t get why its crazy to say fuck both of these groups and targeting civilian’s is never acceptable
Because one side uses civilians as meat shields like cowards and the other side doesn’t.
Also, about half of Israel’s jewish citizens = secular people who want peace
It seems to be the ultra-religious on both sides that are constantly making things worse.
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You can’t understand not wanting to leave but instead voting via democratic process only to be dissatisfied/alarmed that more authoritarian, right wing demagogues are pushing the Overton Window right and eroding democracy?
Do you live on Mars? This is happening everywhere.
I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but if half of them want peace and are secular, why don’t they just leave and go live somewhere else?
To quote some “very fine people” from a major western nation. “Jews will not replace us”.
Lots of places aren’t exactly welcoming to them.
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Why should the Palestinians pay for German crimes with their blood?
I think this comment is pretty unfair. You’re right that there’s a historical demonization of Jews that continues to this day, but i don’t think it makes sense to suggest that the only solution is for all the Jews to hide out in Israel (or some other Jewish nation/state).
That said i don’t think it makes sense to say they have to leave for that reason either, or that it’s the smart thing to do or whatever. Why not stay? If only there were more secular Jews in Israel who opposed apartheid.
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What makes the problem hard is that there are a lot of dickheads on both sides, not just the governments. You can be an oppressed victim AND a dick. These things are not mutually exclusive, unfortunately.
Plus Israel’s dickery gets blind support from America. I’d guess if the Americans demanded actual concessions from Israel this would no longer be a problem, they’d have two states already. As it is, they have every economic and political incentive to just squeeze the Palestinians harder.
You mean the American government surely. Americans can’t even get our government to do shit for Americans lmao
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Isreali citizens = also victims, although much less abused and arguably somewhat complicit if they immigrated.
This part always makes me feel ambivalent about the Israelites in the conflict. Israeli citizens are complicit victims, and that’s a contradiction but it’s also true. Civilians are getting hurt and dying and that’s not okay. However those same Israeli citizens are also supporting a basically genocidal government. Thousands of guidanceless rockets were fired at Isreal, are they expected not to respond? Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been victimized for their entire lives, are they expected not to respond?
If you’re just born in Tel Aviv or Gaza City, I don’t think you should be blamed for these military things. Maybe you support Hamas or Otzma Yehudit, but you’re kind of a product of your environment, and if tangential support is all you do you’re still a bystander. Maybe not a great example of humanity, but a bystander none the less.
I would have to be pretty truly desperate to consider aliyah myself, even before there was a war. I guess I could do it, and then support forces in Israel for peace, but I’m not sure if I’d make any difference, and they’re going to be reluctant to let in my never-practiced ass even without me being openly hostile to the whole project.
One of the downsides of having mandatory military service is that civilians aren’t exactly regular civilians. Even if they’re not serving now, most of the adult population in Israel has served in the army.
I don’t think that excuses sexual violence and executing children, but it definitely makes the context of civilians a lot murkier.
Fortunately, no child executions or rapes have been confirmed.
Thousands of guidanceless rockets were fired at Isreal, are they expected not to respond?
This kind of thinking is what got the troubles as bad as it was
Yeah it did. Unfortunately though once the genie is out of the bottle it’s really hard to put it back in. War has it’s own momentum and it’s that momentum that needs to be resisted or expended before a war will stop. Perhaps I was unclear, I do not support any active combatants to the war and like every other war it’s the non-combatants who will suffer the most. As much as I would like to resist the momentum of war, I’m just a dude on the other side of the planet talking about something he barely knows.
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Looks like some self proclaimed centrists felt triggered by this lmao
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It’s been 17 years since the last election. Assuming only 18 and up could vote, that means only people current around 34 and up could vote. So the bulk of Palestinians didn’t even have a chance to vote in that election. Not to mention that they were given the choice between a corrupt faction (Fatah) and a possible less corrupt faction (Hamas).
I am so afraid this message is getting lost. There has been a deliberate push to paint this latest incident to be the reason that neighborhoods had to be flattened and civilians slaughtered.
why can’t they hold elections?
Conveniently, the Palestinian government is denying all citizens the right to vote because those who live in Jerusalem would not be included. It helps Hamas keep power while pinning blame elsewhere.
They scheduled one for last year to get on Biden’s good side, but that never happened.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/1/27/palestinian-elections-democracy-for-no-one
They can. They won’t.
Either they’re just undemocratic, or they know that the results of elections wouldn’t be what they want them to be.
Because Abbas is a lying, snivelling turd who pretends to care about his people.
Presumably because they are busy planning funerals for their children
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By not revolting against Hamas, they are actively supporting them.
You’re either with our against the terrorists. There’s no in-between.
By not actively revolting all of America was responsible for Abu Ghraib?
Hamas sucks, I wish they were never allowed to assume any power. But if Hamas doesn’t control the water, electricity, food, currency, internet, or borders in Gaza; who should the Palestinians revolt against?
That’s actuslly an interesting point, and I do appreciate you bringing it up.
My take is that they, the Palestinians in Gaza, should do whatever in their power to break down Hamas from inside, and show that they are strongly against these terrorists.
They should not revolt against Hamas as their leaders, since you showed they are not (even though I’m under the belief that they are, de facto), but they should revolt against Hamas residing inside of Gaza, and using the territory as a base for their terrorist operations.
So you believe Hamas is the only problem here and once they are killed off the violence will stop and relations can be normalized?
But Israel is doing more than self defense.
Hamas are pure reactionaries that no one would feel safe living next too. But to pretend that Hamas just randomly popped is fantasy land BS. There is more to this story and the world can’t solve this bloody conflict without first understanding all peoples deserves peace and freedom.
They’re sarcastically agreeing with you. These are all IDF massacres of Arab villages.
You do know what a false dichotomy is, right?
Same rhetoric Hamas used to justify killing Israeli civilians.
“They’re all in on it.”
Glad people are growing up and seeing through the facade, though.
Which terrorists? The Israeli ones or the Palestinian ones?
Here here. At least somebody has some fucking balls. Perhaps because it’s not a mess they created.
Hear, hear, not here, here.
Quite write, my mistake.
…my mistake.
I think you meant “missed steak.”
Go Spain.
Haven’t surveys shown that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas?
Sure but you try being killed and kicked out of your homes. I’m sure you would not like the people who are doing it either. Israel has created this mess.
People forget Israel is the one with the power and creating this issue. If Israel actually backs off and treats Palestine as at least human, then I think (and hope) most people will see that Hamas needs to be destroyed as they are a terrorist group.
Isn’t that exactly what Israel did when they left the Gaza strip in 2005? That’s the thing that lead to Hamas taking over in the first place.
They did that, and terror attacks stopped. This basically marked the end of the second Intifada. Then they blockaded Gaza, and the terror attacks came back. Then there was a ceasefire in 2012, with one of the conditions the lifting of the blockade. That didn’t happen, so the terror attacks came back, and we got the 2014 war. See the pattern here?
Didn’t that process of backing off continue until 2007, when the terrorist group Hamas took over and restarted the terror campaigns?
Hamas kills anyone who doesn’t bow to them, including Palestinians.
I mean if you live in a country controlled by a terrorist group that kills anyone who is not their side, and someone goes to your door and asks if you support them… What would you say?
It’s easy to dismiss this issue by thinking they have the same freedom of speech as we do in the west, and they can have political opinions without any repercussion.
Same can be said about north Korea.
Let’s hope the majority are forced into supporting terrorists as their leaders (that sounds so wrong), but let’s not fool ourselves into believing that a significant number of them don’t support Hamas.
Hamas is the only group in this world standing up for the Palestinian people, so I would support them too, we’re I locked up in that open air prison, my family and friends being constantly murdered for profit.
Beheading 40 babies to stand up for their people 😎
Yes, we must understand that not only do Gazan Palestinians as a majority support Hamas, but Hamas is a force for good and they are correct for doing so. Sure, after decolonization, start fighting for a better representative, but for now Hamas is the best shot they have at not being genocided.
This same framework is used every time there is a broad movement which chooses, with good reason, for a strong group which can accomplish their goals. “Socialism is fine but Stalin did it bad” but then the purity fetish prevents the original goal from ever being achieved. Don’t bother convincing people socialism is good but Stalin bad. No Stalin is good and so I socialism.
To be clear, because reading it again gave me some unclarity, I absolutely defend Stalin because he was good, not just as a rhetorical strategy. Just that even if he could’ve been better, he was the best possible and denigrating him denigrates socialism every time. Real critique is fine (“75% good of course”) but painting him as a problem as a person cannot be removed form socialism. Hamas is doing decolonization, and denigrating them is denigrating decolonization
the best shot they have at not being genocided
Stalin is good
You should go to the olympic games in paris next year, you could probably win a lot of gold medals with these mind gymnastics
You should read a goddamn book about any of these topics or begone ye
Edit: ah shit I’m outside of Hexbear. Ok then let’s engage a bit here. What about these things seems contradictory to you? That there is an active genocide for about 100 years in Palestine or that Stalin is good?
How are they not the best chance they have at not being genocided? They’re the only ones fighting to make it not happen lol.
I think elections showed Vladimir Putin won with >90% of the vote.
Kim Jong Un also seems to enjoy the support of his people.
Kim Jong-un is popular because he’s great. Don’t compare him to fuckers like Putin.
Lol.
I’m not joking. You are a victim of propaganda.
🥱
What a nothing statement.
You literally replied with “Lol.”
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“Hamas” has done more for Palestinians than all the “aid” ever given by the EU.
Way to support literal terrorists.
I guess it’s ok to violent attack someone for not upholding to the same religious standards as you do?
Pathetic piece of shit you are, you know that?
religious standards
The previous leader of the PLO, was married to a Palestinian Christian. The issue is not religion, it’s settler colonialism by Israel.
Hamas was funded by Netanyahu and Mossad btw to stop the formation of a Palestinian state.
If by “done more” you mean “gotten civilians killed” and by “aid” you mean “militant religious zealotry”, then you’re absolutely correct. Otherwise, eat a dick you terrorist bootlicker goon.
He does actually specify the EU tbh. Is he wrong?
Is Spain offering asylum to Palestinians? Because that’s the only thing that will help those people.
They have to be able to leave Gaza in order to receive asylum.
Gaza is pretty much an open air prison that you can’t really leave all that easily.
It has ALWAYS been the case that the largest provider of aid to the Palestinians is …
Israel.
It’s not even close.
All these other countries, Spain included, do fuck all for the Palestinians, or anything to help solve the crisis.
The entire Gaza strip holds just 2 million people.
If the nations of the world actually wanted this over, they could open their doors to Palestinians. It would take just 20 nations each assimilating 100,000 refugees, and this nightmare would be over.
Yeah… ask the Jews if there’s no nightmare in diaspora.
It has ALWAYS been the case that the largest provider of aid to the Palestinians is …
Israel.
Uh… Maybe part of that is because Israel actively engineered the current situation where Palestinians don’t have functional states?
Hamas have done more for Palestine than anything the EU has ever done
Hamas has supporters because they are the only one who fight. If tomorrow, Hamas disappears, there will be another group that Palestinians would support and another and another until there are no reasons for the Palestinians to resist
you don’t need to like them or anything (this is not liberalism and freedom of association is not real), our morals or opinions can’t stop the mechanism that is taking place in the place
Palestinian politics is also very heavily influenced by which group is getting external support and aid
extremely rare Spain W
Death to America
Death to America
lol someone just turned 13, wow.
Fuck West Taiwan!
The mass downvoting on comments on this thread shows that the Islamophobes are brigading.
There is literally nothing to disagree with, other than if you object to Muslim/Palestinian people existing.
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Well the title is correct but what do you think does happen if you give money with good intent into a terrorist governed area? Do you believe the money ends where people need it?
It is already proven that humanitarian aid is not used for the people but to buy weapons.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/20/us/politics/israel-gaza-hamas-biden-netanyahu.html
Didn’t they elect Hamas though?
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Thank you. That was very unclear to me.
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They did.
Some of them were wearing IDF uniforms :|
53 percent of all Palestinians want Hamas to rule. Only 14 percent support the opposition party.
APPROVAL for Hamas among Palestinians was as high as 73 percent in the last few years.
So don’t pretend that the majority of these people don’t support those terrorists. Palestinians have been empowering and protecting terrorists for as long as any of you have been alive.
Sympathy for the innocent Palestinians is great. But let’s not pretend these are a people who are all really torn up about the murder of Jewish children.
53 percent
You’re referring to this article, aren’t you?
Read just one paragraph further, emphasis mine:
Head pollster Khalil Shikaki, who has been surveying Palestinian public opinion for more than two decades, called it a “dramatic” shift, but said it also resembles previous swings toward Hamas during times of confrontation. Those all dissipated within three to six months as Hamas failed to deliver on promises of change.
Sadly there’s not many numbers to go by. But have a later poll, some snippets:
Also notable is that Gazans continue to express disapproval of Hamas’ policies towards Israel. About half (53%) agree at least somewhat that “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders,” a percentage that has held steady over the last three years. 59% of Gazans also agree that Hamas should give up its armed units in favor of PA officers in Gaza. Likewise, nearly two-thirds of Gazans would agree at least somewhat with the need for Hamas to preserve the cease-fire in both Gaza and the West Bank.
As well as:
Specifically, Gazans believe that Palestinians should push more against corruption in the PA and Hamas. Most (87%) of Gazans would also like Hamas and the PA to allow free and fair elections, a notable 20-point difference from West Bankers (65%) and East Jerusalemites (66%).
…so, no, short story short Palestinians aren’t exactly happy about their dictators.
Can you post this all over Lemmy?
Be the change you want to see
90% of Russians want Vlad to rule.
101% of North Koreans want Un to rule.
Gaza hasn’t had an election since 2006.
Where are you quoting these fake sounding numbers from?
