Taxing a guy who saves the world on a regular basis seems rude.

CBC/BBC/Al Jazeera, checking the Economist for my minute by minute bellweather county level fun.

Homogenous really? Are you really going to pull that racist dogwhistle… First off keep it civil, there’s no need to swear.

When your first line is all but accusing someone of being racist, you’re going to engender a reaction. Especially when that accusation is levelled for the crime of using a word in its* exact correct context*. (Though, I’m curious, what word would you use to describe the socio demographics of Denmark?)

the Conservative Party of Canada who have striking similarities to the AFD

That’s an insane comparison. You’re really comparing the Conservative party to the mass deportation, anti Islam, anti gay marriage party? I get that you probably don’t like the Conservative’s positions but that’s at best, childishly ignorant.

Here you’re ignoring the countries where pr performs well like in Norway, Switzerland, Denmark. You have been cherry picking the dysfunctional countries to suit your flawed reasoning.

Wait, it’s cherry picking when I give you a boatload of examples, but when you give two examples of small homogenous countries and one of the richest countries in the world (gotta love that moral flexibility around Nazi gold!) that’s just as things should be? And are the Netherlands, who are pretty similar to Denmark and Norway just not worth looking at, even though Geert Wilder’s party is now in charge of immigration?!? Do we not want to look at that because it’s damaging to your argument or because you don’t feel immigrants deserve protection?

The Pierre Poilievre Conservative Party is literally the anti-trans party and your suggestions of keeping the same electoral system in place would give him a much easier time of winning all the power with only a minority of the vote.

This is the sort of silliness that tells me you haven’t looked at the issue or how PR tends to affect issues like this. First, the Conservative positions are generally well within mainstream Canada’s e.g., some 47% of Canadians are not comfortable with kids under 18 accessing gender affirming treatment. When I say a radical anti-trans group, that means one that would go much further, say those who believe transgender folks are a threat to children and would maybe seek to ban them from positions of authority around them or bar gender affirming care all together or at the very least make it a privately funded thing. You could see such a party pull support off the Bloc, maybe some Liberal/NDP economic voters, as well as some Conservatives. But the concern is a party like that could pull enough support from the other parties and end up teaming up with the Conservatives. (Hey folks, you get all your economic policies, in return, some bad things happen to a group you’re already “meh” on. That’s a pretty damned appealing deal.)

legislation without accountability with only 42% of the popular vote

What do you think the word accountability means? In a political context, it usually means that a party has to answer for what they’ve done. And yes, if the Conservatives win, they’ll have a 4 year track record on which to be judged. The same thing that is happening to Trudeau and the Liberals. And after those years, the voters consider the record, consider the promises for future governments and make another decision. That’s how the system is designed to work and why Canada isn’t mired in the same dysfunction as America. (Please don’t be so silly as to say we’re doing exactly the same, please.)

Where candidates have to attack their opponents to win their races that increases polarization. Policy lurch where the policies of the previous government are cancelled out by the new government where nothing gets done.

PR in no way mitigates or solves these problems.

I think it’s clear you haven’t really thought about these things. You just feel that Conservatives are fascists (which is another wildly childish claim) and that PR will somehow stop them, presumably because you think all the good parties will band together to stop them. Which is a fairly ignorant assumption on how things work. Much more likely is someone like the Bloc cuts a deal or a few new fringe parties do.

I doubt you’re old enough to remember but about 16ish years ago, BC looked pretty heavily at adopting a form of PR (MMP was the recommendation if I recall correctly) and there were some really interesting books written about the pros and cons at the time. If you’d like to actually learn about the concerns and possibilities, I’ll try and dig up one of those for you. I can’t help with the widespread ignorance, like calling the AFD similar to the Conservatives but at least on the mechanics and examples of PR. (The really interesting part is of course that this happened just at the start of the wild bifurcation we’ve seen in the decades since.)

I ow a how much?

Appreciate the Pew link! I’d note thought that it talks about the general election, not primaries.

If the progressives don’t outnumber the moderates and centrists even within the Democratic party, then that seems a pretty good indication that American politics is roughly in line with American attitudes, which would mean democracy is working as it should.

Here’s the thing, Sanders got 43% of the primary vote iirc and Clinton got 55. This happened, despite the middle age and elderly voters showing up in significantly larger numbers than the young, presumably progressive ones. If the young voters had shown up and their vote patterns held, Sanders would likely have had a comfortable win.

What on Earth are you trying to say?

Harris and Biden were on the ballot in 2020, as were more progressive candidates. As usual, more moderates and centrists did the boring grown up work of showing up and voting in the primaries and thus, Biden won.

Homogenous really? Are you really going to pull that racist dogwhistle…

Oh for fuck’s sake. If you’d done any reading whatsoever on the subject, you’d know regional/ethno/religious fault lines tend to pop up (and get reinforced) in PR systems. (Germany with the East West divide, Spain has Catalan/Basque, Israel has well, everything and so on.) Even here, you might have noticed the massive urban rural divide in the last election?

Edit: Denmark is also overwhelmingly urban, some 80+% live in urban centres.

PR makes even more sense for diverse countries because there is more representation for different voices in the country.

Which diverse countries are you thinking of that have done or are doing well under PR without issues that would be terrifying to see in Canada (the rise of the AFD, for example.)

Competition always leads to better incomes.

I think you mean outcomes, and in a lot of cases, sure but in politics, it doesn’t seem to.

I’ve given you a murderer’s row of countries that are having huge problems with PR. While the theory is nice, the reality of how it plays out hasn’t been particularly great. Under FPTP, it’s hard to imagine a single issue (say, anti trans) party ever gaining any sort of traction, whereas in PR, you could easily see them get some 10% of the votes and become a force to be reckoned with.

Do you really want Pierre Poilievre and Justin Trudeau to get away with having control of most of the seats?

Not particularly but I’d rather one of them or Singh than some murky backroom dealings deciding the nation. And frankly, the reason we can point to Trudeau is because he and his party are accountable for their actions in government!

I’m kind of stunned that you are so unconcerned that the system for which you are advocating has been fostering Far Right parties that are increasingly gaining power and are almost unworkable in a First Past the Post system.

She was on the ballot in the primaries, which is entirely the point of the post.

Yup. Young votes don’t show up to the general or primaries at anywhere near the same rate as boomers. And sadly, democracy caters more to those who vote.

Denmark does use PR and in a small, fairly homogeneous country it has basically worked.

But look at say, Germany which is now dealing with the rise of the AFD, or Italy which has been a mess for the last 20 years and recently elected a hard right Christian anti immigrant party, or the Netherlands where the parry of banning the Qur’an is now in charge of immigration policy, or Greece which has been so woefully run that it’s required three bailouts from the IMF between 2010 and 2015.

Like, it’s adorable to assume there would only be 4 parties but almost no PR system in the world keeps that few parties, there is a huge incentive to be a single issue party and try to play kingmaker.

And Zimbabwe? That’s your comparison for BC? Really?

PR is one of those things that sounds nice until you really dig into the mechanics, which end up as consolidating power in political elites (they generally control the list of candidates) sketchy backroom deals and almost zero accountability.

Meh, I’d be pretty stunned if Bernie had won more votes and then the super delegates turned around and gave it to Clinton.

Given that we didn’t get anywhere near that, it’s a moot point. Let’s get the majority of votes in a damn primary before we start complaining about what the super delegates might or might not do.

2016 or 2020.

Goodness no, things would be even worse!

Many PR systems end up having a variety of smaller single issue parties. Our system has flaws but it tends to produce majority governments to which it is easy to ascribe blame as well as praise.

In a coalition of 4 differenr parties as government, whom should be blamed for what gets really difficult.

For a practical demonstration, look at Israel which is conducting an unpopular war in part because Netenyahu is beholden to a small group of extreme right wing parties to maintain power.

Totally fair point about 2024. Though I would suggest that given Sanders’ outspoken opposition to what’s happening in Gaza, we might have a very different situation in the middle East had progressives voted in sufficient numbers in 2020. (Which in of itself would be a good thing but when I see complaints about Harris also being bad for Palestineans, this is my first thought.)

Frankly, I’ve seen a lot of stupid “the Dems are evil too” nonsense here, I’ve seen a lot of complaints about the parties being the same and other nonsense.

The point of this meme and thread is to remind people that the choice between Harris and trump is entirely because the progressive wing doesn’t show up to vote in the primaries while the moderates do. Some do vote but not enough. And frankly, if you break it down by demographic, it’s the youth/young middle age that don’t show up and get crushed by the elderly who vote.

BUT amidst all the complaints, I never see anyone say “damn, if only more of us had voted in the primaries.” And if we had, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

You’re devolving into insane hypotheticals.

Fewer Palestineans die under a Harris term than a trump one and you are refusing to help.

That’s the sum total. Have a happy Halloween.

So according to your logic then, no one should worry about this logic as Harris has roughly half a billion more than trump?

https://www.opensecrets.org/2024-presidential-race

meanwhile they literally turn out way higher than any other block of voters in EVERY election.

I’d love to see a source for this. Especially as Clinton won 55% of the primary votes compared to Sanders’ 43%, were the progressives secretly voting for Clinton? Or do those elections not count even though, especially to a progressive, they’d matter more?

Holy goddamn, really?

Yes, one vote doesn’t change anything, especially not in a country of 300 million.

But getting a lot of people to vote does change things.

If you’re actually so childish as to believe “well, I voted so everything should be fixed”, holy damn, adulthood is going to be difficult.

Not getting your way even though you cast a vote is normal. Not getting our way when progressives outvote the moderates, well, that’d be a different story but so far it hasn’t happened because we don’t show up in sufficient numbers to win.

Yeah, odd without a primary. But think back to 2020. Bernie ran again and is strenuously opposed to what’s happening in Gaza. If we’d shown up to vote in the 2020 primaries, I wonder/pray/doubt we’d be inches away from a trump presidency.