True, I’d expect pretty wild conspiracies like flat earth and chemtrails to be laughed at here, but a disturbing number of lemmings and even progressives in general follow a set of less outlandish - but more insidious - conspiracies that usually fall into the “collusion and malice” type. I could say that General Motors et al. killed most of the US passenger rail and streetcar systems, and most people here would accept that as a fact. Case closed, capitalism is evil and should be abolished, every bad thing is cause by someone with I’ll intentions making it worse.
I, however, tend to be suspicious of those sorts of takes in general. Returning to the alleged “streetcar conspiracy”I’ve actually done quite a lot of research into this and can decidedly say that the primary cause of the decline of mass transit in the US was… There were at least 5 primary causes, none of which were shadowy groups deliberately working to destroy it. Rather it was killed by a changing urban environment, failures to adapt to modal shifts, legacy streetcar systems just generally sucking, and local governments taking transit for granted and assuming that they can hold streetcar companies to exacting standards while expecting them to remain solvent, all while not considering it their problem.
I could go on, and can send some sources and references (maybe not direct links though) if you’d like to learn more. But my main point is that far too many people assume there’s a nefarious actor pulling the strings the whole time when it’s usually several factors lining up all the holes in the Swiss cheese and creating a negative externality we still talk about to this day.
There (usually) isn’t a conspiracy, and if there is it’s unlikely to be anywhere near as all-encompassing as you think. People say there is because it gives them someone to blame, helps channel their anger at something tangible, and just makes a good story.
Rather it was killed by a changing urban environment, failures to adapt to modal shifts, legacy streetcar systems just generally sucking, and local governments taking transit for granted and assuming that they can hold streetcar companies to exacting standards while expecting them to remain solvent, all while not considering it their problem.
You forgot things like automotive companies buying up streetcar companies and running them into the ground, as well as racist developers just loving the chance to demolish black neighbourhoods and red-lining suburbia. Things like building bridges just low enough so that buses cannot drive under them to keep parks reachable via those underpasses clear of the riff-raff.
Would the whole thing have happened if only the car companies were into it? No, I don’t think so. But they were very much part of the wider push, and participated actively in it out of a profit motive. Municipalities or local industry could’ve backed the streetcar companies, for example, protecting them against a hostile takeover from companies which very much were interested in their demise and push the US modal shift towards sheer absurdity. Municipal building/infrastructure codes could’ve caught those too low bridges.
Most conspiracy stuff is usually not “shadowy cabal somewhere” but interests of independent actors aligning. Conspiracy in the secrecy sense only comes into play when actors need to collude and said collusion is illegal, or, at the least, would generate too much public backlash.
You forgot things like automotive companies buying up streetcar companies and running them into the ground
No I didn’t, I was specifically arguing against this narrative. GM et al were convicted of monopolizing transit through a company called National City Lines, however this occurred after all of the transit woes had ended. As such their involvement isn’t all that relevant to the decline of surface rail transit as a whole. In fact, in many cases, buses were objectively superior to streetcars, since without dedicated rights of way, any rail transport becomes hellishly slow. By the time any of the alleged conspiracy took place, all of the streetcar systems supposedly involved were either dead or dying, and those who survived usually had something that made them superior to buses (such as extensive tunnels).
…racist developers just loving the chance to demolish black neighbourhoods and red-lining suburbia
This happened, but isn’t what I was talking about.
But they were very much part of the wider push, and participated actively in it out of a profit motive.
This happened after the dust had settled. Particularly when it comes to intercity rail, road and air transportation became much more popular after the decline of passenger rail service - usually caused by self-destructive acts by the railroads themselves. Remember, the interstates weren’t completed until decades after the act was signed.
Municipalities or local industry could’ve backed the streetcar companies, for example, protecting them against a hostile takeover from companies which very much were interested in their demise and push the US modal shift towards sheer absurdity.
What should have happened was that cities should have brought their transit systems into public ownership, however again, they didn’t consider it their problem. They also just really hated the transit companies as a whole, particularly after they reduced staffing on streetcars to one operator (down from two) in a desperate attempt to reduce operating costs. Both NYC and Chicago bought out their transit companies, and both systems continue to be highly effective to this day.
Things like building bridges just low enough so that buses cannot drive under them to keep parks reachable via those underpasses clear of the riff-raff.
Moses. Yes, he was very racist.
Municipal building/infrastructure codes could’ve caught those too low bridges.
Who do you think invented those codes?
Most conspiracy stuff is usually not “shadowy cabal somewhere” but interests of independent actors aligning. Conspiracy in the secrecy sense only comes into play when actors need to collude and said collusion is illegal, or, at the least, would generate too much public backlash.
Not too much to add here, sometimes might be true, sometimes not. Remember Hanlon’s Razor.>>>
True, I’d expect pretty wild conspiracies like flat earth and chemtrails to be laughed at here, but a disturbing number of lemmings and even progressives in general follow a set of less outlandish - but more insidious - conspiracies that usually fall into the “collusion and malice” type. I could say that General Motors et al. killed most of the US passenger rail and streetcar systems, and most people here would accept that as a fact. Case closed, capitalism is evil and should be abolished, every bad thing is cause by someone with I’ll intentions making it worse.
I, however, tend to be suspicious of those sorts of takes in general. Returning to the alleged “streetcar conspiracy”I’ve actually done quite a lot of research into this and can decidedly say that the primary cause of the decline of mass transit in the US was… There were at least 5 primary causes, none of which were shadowy groups deliberately working to destroy it. Rather it was killed by a changing urban environment, failures to adapt to modal shifts, legacy streetcar systems just generally sucking, and local governments taking transit for granted and assuming that they can hold streetcar companies to exacting standards while expecting them to remain solvent, all while not considering it their problem.
I could go on, and can send some sources and references (maybe not direct links though) if you’d like to learn more. But my main point is that far too many people assume there’s a nefarious actor pulling the strings the whole time when it’s usually several factors lining up all the holes in the Swiss cheese and creating a negative externality we still talk about to this day.
There (usually) isn’t a conspiracy, and if there is it’s unlikely to be anywhere near as all-encompassing as you think. People say there is because it gives them someone to blame, helps channel their anger at something tangible, and just makes a good story.
You forgot things like automotive companies buying up streetcar companies and running them into the ground, as well as racist developers just loving the chance to demolish black neighbourhoods and red-lining suburbia. Things like building bridges just low enough so that buses cannot drive under them to keep parks reachable via those underpasses clear of the riff-raff.
Would the whole thing have happened if only the car companies were into it? No, I don’t think so. But they were very much part of the wider push, and participated actively in it out of a profit motive. Municipalities or local industry could’ve backed the streetcar companies, for example, protecting them against a hostile takeover from companies which very much were interested in their demise and push the US modal shift towards sheer absurdity. Municipal building/infrastructure codes could’ve caught those too low bridges.
Most conspiracy stuff is usually not “shadowy cabal somewhere” but interests of independent actors aligning. Conspiracy in the secrecy sense only comes into play when actors need to collude and said collusion is illegal, or, at the least, would generate too much public backlash.
No I didn’t, I was specifically arguing against this narrative. GM et al were convicted of monopolizing transit through a company called National City Lines, however this occurred after all of the transit woes had ended. As such their involvement isn’t all that relevant to the decline of surface rail transit as a whole. In fact, in many cases, buses were objectively superior to streetcars, since without dedicated rights of way, any rail transport becomes hellishly slow. By the time any of the alleged conspiracy took place, all of the streetcar systems supposedly involved were either dead or dying, and those who survived usually had something that made them superior to buses (such as extensive tunnels).
This happened, but isn’t what I was talking about.
This happened after the dust had settled. Particularly when it comes to intercity rail, road and air transportation became much more popular after the decline of passenger rail service - usually caused by self-destructive acts by the railroads themselves. Remember, the interstates weren’t completed until decades after the act was signed.
What should have happened was that cities should have brought their transit systems into public ownership, however again, they didn’t consider it their problem. They also just really hated the transit companies as a whole, particularly after they reduced staffing on streetcars to one operator (down from two) in a desperate attempt to reduce operating costs. Both NYC and Chicago bought out their transit companies, and both systems continue to be highly effective to this day.
Moses. Yes, he was very racist.
Who do you think invented those codes?
Not too much to add here, sometimes might be true, sometimes not. Remember Hanlon’s Razor.>>>