Context
There have been a lot of posts and comments recently about Facebook entering the fediverse, and how different instances will handle it. Many people have asked me to commit to pre-emptively defederating from Threads before they even implement ActivityPub.
The lemm.ee federation policy states that it’s not a goal for lemm.ee to curate content for our users, but we will certainly defederate any server which aims to systematically break our rules. I want to point out here that Facebook makes essentially all of its money from advertising, and lemm.ee has a no advertising rule - basically, Facebook has a built-in financial incentive to break our rules. ActivityPub has no protections against advertising, so it’s likely we will end up having to eventually defederate from Threads just for this reason alone.
However, I would still like to get a feel for how many people in our instance are actually excited for potential federation with Threads. While personally I feel that any theoretical pros are by far outweighed by cons, I do want to use this opportunity to see how much of the community disagrees with me. I am not intending to run this instance as a democracy (sorry if anybody is disappointed by that), but I would still like to have a clear picture of user feedback for potentially major decisions such as this one. This is why I am asking every user who wants lemm.ee to federate with Facebook to please downvote this post.
Here are some reasons why I personally believe that Threads will have a negative effect on the fediverse
- As mentioned above, Facebook is completely driven by ad revenue. There is nothing stopping them from sending out ads as posts/comments with artificially inflated scores, which would ensure that their ads end up on the “all” page of federated servers.
- Threads already has more users than all Lemmy instances combined. Even if their algorithms don’t apply to the rest of the fediverse directly, they can still completely dictate what the “all” page will look like for all instances by simply controlling what their own users see and vote on.
- Moderation does not seem to be a priority for Threads so far, meaning that they would create massive moderation workloads for smaller instances.
- In general, Facebook has shown countless times that they don’t have their users best interests in mind. They view users as something to exploit for revenue. There are probably ways they are already thinking about hurting the fediverse that we can’t even imagine yet.
By the way, we’re not really in any rush today with our decision regarding federation
- Threads does not have ActivityPub support yet today
- Even if they add ActivityPub support, their UX is geared towards Mastodon-like usage - it seems unlikely that there would ever be proper interoperability between Threads and Lemmy
- We don’t really know what to defederate from - it’s completely possible that “threads.net” will not be their ActivityPub domain at all.
So go ahead and downvote if you feel defederation would be a mistake, and feel free to share your thoughts in the comments! It would be super helpful to me if folks who are in favor of federating with Threads could leave a comment explaining their reasoning.
Update:
By now, it’s clear that there is a group of users who are in favor of federating with Threads. The breakdown is like this (based on downvotes):
- lemm.ee users: 136 in favor of federating with Threads
- Others: 288 in favor of federating with Threads
While it seems to be a minority, it’s still quite a few users. There is no way to please all users in this situation - any decision I make will certainly inconvenience some of you, and I apologize for that.
A big thanks to everybody who has shared opinions and arguments in comments so far. I think there are several well written comments that have been unfairly downvoted, but I have personally read all comments and tried to respond to several as well. I will keep reading them as they come in.
The main facts I am working with right now are as follows:
- The majority of lemm.ee users are strongly opposed to immediately federating with Threads
- Facebook has a proven track record of exploiting users (and a built-in financial incentive to do so)
- We currently lack proper federation/moderation tools to allow us to properly handle rule breaking content from Facebook
Considering all of the above, I believe the initial approach for lemm.ee should be to defederate Threads, and then monitor the situation for a period of time to determine if federating with them in the future is a realistic option
In order to federate with them, the following conditions would need to be fulfilled:
- There needs to be actual interoperability between Threads and Lemmy
- Threads needs to prove that they are not flooding instances with rule-breaking content (mainly ads and bigotry for lemm.ee)
- There needs to be a mechanism to prevent feed manipulation by Threads algorithms (potentially this means discarding all incoming votes from Threads)
Note: this is an initial list, subject to change as we learn more about Threads.
Again, I realize this approach won’t please everybody, but I really believe it’s the best approach on a whole for now. Please feel free to keep adding comments and keep the discussion going if you think there is something I have not considered.
I’m excited by the potential of the fediverse, and I want the fediverse to grow. That means more users. However, the noncommercial nature of the fediverse is why I’m excited by it in the first place. I couldn’t care less if there’s yet another gigantic social network full of ads.
Allowing any profit-driven interest to influence the fediverse risks destroying what makes the fediverse interesting and special. I’m not willing to risk the fediverse in order to grow it.
First you say you couldn’t care less. Then you say you’re not willing to risk it. Seems like you care a lot?
I think you’re misunderstanding their point. They’re saying they don’t care about another ad-filled, user tracking social media platform (Threads), which is inherently opposite to what Lemmy is. They and myself care enough to not see the influence of Threads / Meta on Lemmy, and the Fediverse as a whole.
Couldn’t care less about the existence of commercial entities on the fediverse. But also willing to preemptively fracture the fediverse to ensure that no user of this instance can ever choose to see any content from any user of any commercial instance. But seriously other than that couldn’t care less about their existence.
Have I got it right?
No, still wrong
I think what they’re saying is that they don’t care if they are creating their social networks on their own island, on their own networks, but they DO care if they invade on the fediverse.
Right…
Nope, you inserted that yourself from absolutely nowhere.
Uh, that’s what the fediverse inherently is.
Again, no. No one is being deprived of the Zucc. If you want to see his dogshit, you can make an account on an instance that federates with it. That’s how all this works.
“Everyone sign up separately for each instance if they want to see it, that’s how the fediverse works”.
Bro that’s exactly how the non federated internet works. What’s even the point of federating, with this attitude?
Now you’re just being incredibly hyperbolic and acting like a drama queen over a complete non-issue.
If you want to participate in the Zuccfeed, no one is impeding you, nor can they. If you’re genuinely this outraged over the censorship you’re pretending is happening, you can host your own private instance and federate with literally anyone and everyone you want to.
Likewise, though, you don’t get to decide who other people choose to federate their instances with or not.
There are definitely some hyperbolic drama queens in this threads. It’s the ones screaming “all corporations are evil and no one should want to view corporate hosted content!”
As for me, I am well aware how it works. Many lemmy instances have declared their intent to defederate. I’m looking for one that will not. If I don’t find one I will consider next steps.
Meta is one of the most demonstrably evil corporations on the map right now. Feel free to go to Threads, Lemmy will be fine without you.
Meta is not just another instance. This isn’t the same as blocking instances for offensive content. This is blocking explicit corporate control.