As I said before this is an unsafe site for Indigenous people. I’m out. Don’t bother DMing me. I’m scrambling my password and locking myself out of my own account. I’ve grown to care for and trust a lot of you so it’s hard to leave but it is clear that this site isn’t for me. I understand that the world and internet at large is really shitty to vegans so I understand and support the need for a safe space to process your experiences and to practice your dunks. All the best, signing off.
Reposted here since it is invisible where I first posted it. https://hexbear.net/post/94432
As a member of a marginalized community, I don’t think our beliefs or traditions or viewpoint should be held as sacrosanct. We’re humans, with flaws and fucked up-beliefs like anyone else, and nobody is asking for some Disney-style fetishization of POC or indigenous practices or customs.
What I do expect is, an acknowledgement that we may not be fully aware of other groups conditions, that we’ve often been silenced when we speak out and the fact that even attempts to regulate or promote behavior deemed to be more positive has often be applied in ways to suppress. Some tact, and common consideration is all I’m asking for.
Constantly using ham-fisted comparisons and equivocations to the worst atrocities in human history and blithely doubling, tripling, quadrupling (and so on) down after people apart of those groups affected have repeatedly spoken out against it is not consideration and tact.
Presenting a less harmful choice in consumption habits under capitalism as a pillar of leftism and excluding marginalized comrades and dismissing their explanations on why some presuppositions might be inaccurate or reductionist is not consideration and tact.
Depicting your less harmful choice in consumption habits and the pushback you receive as being apart of an ‘oppressed minority’ is not consideration and tact. Vegans have never been systemically hunted down, whipped and hanged from trees for being vegan, have never been forced into conversion camps to surrender their commitment to veganism, have never had their places of gathering torched and looted in pogroms, deported or murdered in droves.
I’m sure there are POC and indigenous among the vegans here with different views. That’s fine, our experiences are far from universal, what matters is that there is a consistent pattern of negative behavior that a very significant amount of the POC and indigenous community here have found very harmful and not without reason, as I’m sure you’ve seen by some examples now.
Veganism is good. It should be promoted.
Just don’t be racist about it and don’t confuse it for being leftist in itself.
Vegans have never been systemically hunted down, whipped and hanged from trees for being vegan, have never been forced into conversion camps to surrender their commitment to veganism,
Lots of sensible input, and I think we really ought not to compare it to the Shoa or such. As such I will not talk about anything related to that or comparable moments in history, though vegans/vegetarians were in some places and time frames systematically hunted, captured, tortured, and killed. Your argument still holds most weight, but it isn’t necessary to marginalize people who were kileld for not participating in murdering living beings or eating meat.
/c/vegan seems adamant to prove every single vegan stereotype true lol
I get feeling sick of constant bad faith counterarguments but come on.
Understandable, best of luck elsewhere. This has been really terrible.
Its a bit concerning that the post calling out the racism of people referring to indigenous people as barbaric was removed. I think this is going to drive a lot of people away from the site. There are ways to have these discussions without resorting to bigotry.
It’s absolutely possible to acknowledge that longstanding and even cherished traditions in minority and indigenous cultures can be problematic with regard to the goals of the larger socialist project without being a bigot or chauvinist about it, but those conversations should start in those communities - not on a predominately white, predominately american shitposting forum - and have no reason to be a priority within the larger project until well after the liberation of those cultures. The issues that are present and aren’t just imperialist bullshit and western chauvinism dressed up in emancipatory language are trivial compared to the insane, industrialized injustice of shit like factory farming and trying to make people feel like shit about them is extremely counterproductive. Also, context really fucking matters and people on this site should be real goddamn aware of it when we live and breathe irony and analysis. Using the term “barbaric” to describe anything isn’t great, but at least if you apply it to things like the conditions and practices in US slaughterhouses you aren’t directly reinforcing hundreds of years of violence and racism. Using “barbaric” like a slur is using a slur and should be bannable. We routinely ban for less.
A message for my fellow white westerners: Do you consider animal liberation integral to the goals of socialism? Are you “concerned” about indigenous traditions like, for example, hunting marine life? Here’s an idea: focus that time and energy instead on issues in non-minority communities like seal clubbing by white hunters, cleaning up ocean plastic, transitioning away from petroleum products, and greater accountability for companies and individuals directly responsible for the destruction of marine habitats. Heck, even the Japanese policy excluding whales from protection is fine to fight against as long as your criticisms aren’t racist (there are Japanese environmental groups oppose it! find out how you can support those groups and use your position in the west to boost their message without co-opting it!). Focus on positive and productive preservation and repopulation efforts and environmental causes to help make wild habitats more livable and reduce the impact of yourself and your own community. You’ll save more marine life and further animal liberation more than you ever could condescending and denigrating indigenous people, who have endured centuries of genocide at our hands and as a result occupy a small fraction of the population and are responsible for an even smaller fraction of the animal cruelty inflicted globally. Stop fucking throwing racist, chauvinist stones in glass houses. Work on getting western traditions like veal, fox hunting, and other murder tourism like safaris outlawed before you think about bringing up comparatively minuscule problematic traditions in oppressed communities you don’t belong to.
