More than 6,000 United Methodist congregations have now received permission to leave the denomination amid a schism over theology and the role of LGBTQ people.
Can we please move beyond this 2010 New Atheism view
That’s really not something a mod should say and pretty much dismissing an opinion without even engaging it. I guess atheists are just ok to dismiss and deny an opinion?
That’s a bad faith interpretation of what the mod said and who they were replying to. They were pointing out that the idea that all religious people are devoid of critical thinking skills is an incorrect take, and they were asking for people to move beyond a specific kind of toxic atheistic leaning.
What you are accusing me of, dismissing and denying all atheists (channel switching upwards) is what the original comment thread was doing, dismissing and denying all religious individuals.
To be absolutely clear, I think that religious people who are bigoted and incapable of critical thinking are a problem to society and I have suffered directly at the hands of these individuals, but we should be focusing on that or asking questions to confirm this shared concern rather than attacking each other because we jump to the conclusion that any push back to our words must come from an ideological standpoint in opposition to ours.
They could argue their point and were not attacking anyone specific. The mod continued to be upset and eventually attacked the poster specifically, when the posted stayed hypothetical.
If you don’t know how dismissive of atheists that saying is, how it’s used to shut down their opinion, which they were sharing without attacking someonee specifically, likely because they became atheists after a lot of personal work, is exactly why atheists get shut out of a conversation.
Is their opinion not valid? Have they attacked anyone or taken any rights, or just expressed an opinion they offered to discuss and never attcked anyone?
Literally they pointed out the flaws in the mods argument and the mod got mad. Only one group was being aggressive, one group made a mildly flippant joke and was willing to discuss the nuance. One became sarcastic and rude.
What’s happening in this thread of replies is exactly what I was pointing out when I stepped in earlier… This is not productive. Please disengage.
If you are unable to see how this is not productive, I would suggest you take a step back, disengage, and reread this thread with a fresh pair of eyes. Reread this thread and try to put yourself in the shoes of someone else who might not hold the same opinion as you do. In fact, I would encourage you to make up a purely hypothetical person, someone who is nice and caring but also religious, and ask yourself how this might feel.
If that’s not enough for you to see where things got derailed, here’s a detailed reply to some of your points
The mod continued to be upset and eventually attacked the poster specifically, when the posted stayed hypothetical.
Dismissing what someone says by using the following text
Blah blah blah, fallacious appeal to authority, blah blah blah.
is escalating. If OP was treating the mod with good faith, they would not be dismissive of them in a way which indicates they do not value their intelligence.
but even if you disagree with that
which is about the level of discourse I’d expect from someone unfamiliar with the concept of critical thinking. Thanks for being an object lesson.
is an ad hominem and a direct attack on the mod. The person wasn’t just “pointing out the flaws in the mods argument”, they were dismissive and treating the mod with bad faith to push their point across as superior. They were not engaging in good faith.
At this point I’m going to disengage. If this isn’t enough for you to understand that things went bad somewhere and I stepped in to try and diffuse an unproductive conversation and to help keep this place civil, I can’t help you anymore and you either need to trust me, trust the opinions of others who have replied in this post, or move on from this issue. This isn’t productive.
I am disengaged, i have a life and the site was down.
If you don’t see the dog whistles that started because teens leaving religion on the internet were trying to explore themselves and break from what most people only follow because they were raised in it that the internet dismissed because of memes more than actual atheists causing issues.
Then beehaw is as bad as i was suspecting about trying too hard to appeal to everyone. You clearly wanted your mods words to be taken with respect and NOT users. If YOU are an admin and cannot see how your staff started issues and someone simply stepped in and stood firm, then you don’t allow people to stand up for themselves and as a queer atheist i get it, it’s not as popular, but you wouldn’t let any other minority group be treated this way and your administration needs to think about that.
Beehaw is good in theory but when you do not allow anyone to discuss things and come after the group who was under attack, your team needs more experience. I wish you all well and maybe beehaw will mature, but right now it’s centist leaning new age more than anything based on reality.
you wouldn’t let any other minority group be treated this way
Because you’re making an accusation here I want to clear up a misconception you seem to have. I am a queer atheist. The mod who stepped in is also a queer atheist. Please stop making assumptions without asking questions. I understand being guarded as a protective mechanism against the people who have caused you real harm in your life, I too have experienced similar harm. But I’m not out here to censor your opinion or attack you. I’m merely asking for you to disengage as things have gone off the rails.
I apologize for being a little annoyed right now. I feel like I’m being moderated for defending myself against their escalation.
The top level comment from the mod was not aggressive or accusatory.
My response to that top level comment was measured and nuanced, with specific examples of real events and an analysis of the mindset behind those events.
Their reply to me included all caps, excessive punctuation, extremely bad-faith arguments (the actual religious views of every single one of the names they dropped are incredibly complicated, not just “was Christian”; again, one member of that esteemed list literally believed he could turn lead into gold with magic), and that’s assuming calling the question of critical thinking outdated and childish (“2010 New Atheist”) is not an aggressive escalation.
Furthermore, you told me to disengage, and then the mod continued to engage. I’d appreciate it if they received a similar request, because right now it feels like you’re holding my arms behind my back while they get to keep punching me.
My response to that top level comment was measured and nuanced, with specific examples of real events and an analysis of the mindset behind those events.
That’s not how this came off to myself, or the people who reported various comments in this thread. I would encourage you to diffuse rather than escalate if you are ever met with something that feels like an escalation. It’s impossible to remove yourself entirely from a situation where you feel you are being attacked, which is why I push towards the concept of good faith. When it feels like someone is escalating- ask questions and try to diffuse rather than assume you have interpreted their words correctly.
If you need a more detailed view of how I interpreted the interaction, feel free to check my replies further down this thread to another individual.
Furthermore, you told me to disengage, and then the mod continued to engage. I’d appreciate it if they received a similar request
To be absolutely clear and transparent, they have and they have since deleted some of their replies. On a more practical level I am much more familiar with this mod and their judgement than I am with you, and I’m going to be generally siding with any moderator we have as they get vetted rather thoroughly… however, we are all human here and we make mistakes and we engage in human behavior. Please have patience with us and treat us with good faith. I’m sorry if anyone failed you here, but this kind of engagement- a good faith one, where you ask questions, and try to solve problems is what I personally love to see and it’s in my experience the best way to resolve conflict. Thank you for engaging in this manner 💜
. On a more practical level I am much more familiar with this mod and their judgement than I am with you, and I’m going to be generally siding with any moderator we have as they get vetted rather thoroughly
Well, I mean… ok, that’s fair. I can’t argue with that.
To be clear I chose to state that because I want to acknowledge my own biases here and the fact that I’m often pressed for time and making a response/decision based on a report or an escalation from a mod and a quick glance of what’s going on. The more that you make it unequivocally clear that you’re operating in good faith (even past the point that it is warranted) the more likely I am act differently based on reports/escalations given the fact that I don’t really know you right now. I don’t want to assign blame to anyone here, merely to diffuse a situation which went off the rails. Hopefully that context helps you understand why I acted in the way that I did.
To be clear I chose to state that because I want to acknowledge my own biases here and the fact that I’m often pressed for time
No, that’s totally fine, and I’m being completely serious. Sometimes it’s hard to remember that this community is much smaller and tighter than the ones I’m used to. It honestly never occurred to me that y’all would, like, actually know each other, which is my own bias.
No, absolutely not. By Reddit standards, this was a tiff. Maybe a smaller tussle. Definitely not a kerfluffle.
Besides, part of this is a “me” problem. I’m still adjusting to not having to come out of the gate swinging the first time I sense hostility. Did I respond to an energy? Sure. Did I respond to an intentional energy? …eh, maybe, maybe not. Did I go from 0-100 too fast? Probably. What I’m saying is, I see how I could have handled that better. And the fact that you took the time to engage with me over it is a big positive for the platform.
The top level comment from the mod was not aggressive or accusatory. They escalated.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter who’s in the wrong, it’s time for everyone to disengage. This is not productive.
You don’t see an issue with a MOD starting with
That’s really not something a mod should say and pretty much dismissing an opinion without even engaging it. I guess atheists are just ok to dismiss and deny an opinion?
That’s a bad faith interpretation of what the mod said and who they were replying to. They were pointing out that the idea that all religious people are devoid of critical thinking skills is an incorrect take, and they were asking for people to move beyond a specific kind of toxic atheistic leaning.
What you are accusing me of, dismissing and denying all atheists (channel switching upwards) is what the original comment thread was doing, dismissing and denying all religious individuals.
To be absolutely clear, I think that religious people who are bigoted and incapable of critical thinking are a problem to society and I have suffered directly at the hands of these individuals, but we should be focusing on that or asking questions to confirm this shared concern rather than attacking each other because we jump to the conclusion that any push back to our words must come from an ideological standpoint in opposition to ours.
They could argue their point and were not attacking anyone specific. The mod continued to be upset and eventually attacked the poster specifically, when the posted stayed hypothetical.
If you don’t know how dismissive of atheists that saying is, how it’s used to shut down their opinion, which they were sharing without attacking someonee specifically, likely because they became atheists after a lot of personal work, is exactly why atheists get shut out of a conversation.
Is their opinion not valid? Have they attacked anyone or taken any rights, or just expressed an opinion they offered to discuss and never attcked anyone?
Literally they pointed out the flaws in the mods argument and the mod got mad. Only one group was being aggressive, one group made a mildly flippant joke and was willing to discuss the nuance. One became sarcastic and rude.
What’s happening in this thread of replies is exactly what I was pointing out when I stepped in earlier… This is not productive. Please disengage.
If you are unable to see how this is not productive, I would suggest you take a step back, disengage, and reread this thread with a fresh pair of eyes. Reread this thread and try to put yourself in the shoes of someone else who might not hold the same opinion as you do. In fact, I would encourage you to make up a purely hypothetical person, someone who is nice and caring but also religious, and ask yourself how this might feel.
If that’s not enough for you to see where things got derailed, here’s a detailed reply to some of your points
Dismissing what someone says by using the following text
is escalating. If OP was treating the mod with good faith, they would not be dismissive of them in a way which indicates they do not value their intelligence.
but even if you disagree with that
is an ad hominem and a direct attack on the mod. The person wasn’t just “pointing out the flaws in the mods argument”, they were dismissive and treating the mod with bad faith to push their point across as superior. They were not engaging in good faith.
At this point I’m going to disengage. If this isn’t enough for you to understand that things went bad somewhere and I stepped in to try and diffuse an unproductive conversation and to help keep this place civil, I can’t help you anymore and you either need to trust me, trust the opinions of others who have replied in this post, or move on from this issue. This isn’t productive.
I am disengaged, i have a life and the site was down.
If you don’t see the dog whistles that started because teens leaving religion on the internet were trying to explore themselves and break from what most people only follow because they were raised in it that the internet dismissed because of memes more than actual atheists causing issues.
Then beehaw is as bad as i was suspecting about trying too hard to appeal to everyone. You clearly wanted your mods words to be taken with respect and NOT users. If YOU are an admin and cannot see how your staff started issues and someone simply stepped in and stood firm, then you don’t allow people to stand up for themselves and as a queer atheist i get it, it’s not as popular, but you wouldn’t let any other minority group be treated this way and your administration needs to think about that.
Beehaw is good in theory but when you do not allow anyone to discuss things and come after the group who was under attack, your team needs more experience. I wish you all well and maybe beehaw will mature, but right now it’s centist leaning new age more than anything based on reality.
Because you’re making an accusation here I want to clear up a misconception you seem to have. I am a queer atheist. The mod who stepped in is also a queer atheist. Please stop making assumptions without asking questions. I understand being guarded as a protective mechanism against the people who have caused you real harm in your life, I too have experienced similar harm. But I’m not out here to censor your opinion or attack you. I’m merely asking for you to disengage as things have gone off the rails.
I apologize for being a little annoyed right now. I feel like I’m being moderated for defending myself against their escalation.
My response to that top level comment was measured and nuanced, with specific examples of real events and an analysis of the mindset behind those events.
Their reply to me included all caps, excessive punctuation, extremely bad-faith arguments (the actual religious views of every single one of the names they dropped are incredibly complicated, not just “was Christian”; again, one member of that esteemed list literally believed he could turn lead into gold with magic), and that’s assuming calling the question of critical thinking outdated and childish (“2010 New Atheist”) is not an aggressive escalation.
Furthermore, you told me to disengage, and then the mod continued to engage. I’d appreciate it if they received a similar request, because right now it feels like you’re holding my arms behind my back while they get to keep punching me.
That’s not how this came off to myself, or the people who reported various comments in this thread. I would encourage you to diffuse rather than escalate if you are ever met with something that feels like an escalation. It’s impossible to remove yourself entirely from a situation where you feel you are being attacked, which is why I push towards the concept of good faith. When it feels like someone is escalating- ask questions and try to diffuse rather than assume you have interpreted their words correctly.
If you need a more detailed view of how I interpreted the interaction, feel free to check my replies further down this thread to another individual.
To be absolutely clear and transparent, they have and they have since deleted some of their replies. On a more practical level I am much more familiar with this mod and their judgement than I am with you, and I’m going to be generally siding with any moderator we have as they get vetted rather thoroughly… however, we are all human here and we make mistakes and we engage in human behavior. Please have patience with us and treat us with good faith. I’m sorry if anyone failed you here, but this kind of engagement- a good faith one, where you ask questions, and try to solve problems is what I personally love to see and it’s in my experience the best way to resolve conflict. Thank you for engaging in this manner 💜
Well, I mean… ok, that’s fair. I can’t argue with that.
To be clear I chose to state that because I want to acknowledge my own biases here and the fact that I’m often pressed for time and making a response/decision based on a report or an escalation from a mod and a quick glance of what’s going on. The more that you make it unequivocally clear that you’re operating in good faith (even past the point that it is warranted) the more likely I am act differently based on reports/escalations given the fact that I don’t really know you right now. I don’t want to assign blame to anyone here, merely to diffuse a situation which went off the rails. Hopefully that context helps you understand why I acted in the way that I did.
No, that’s totally fine, and I’m being completely serious. Sometimes it’s hard to remember that this community is much smaller and tighter than the ones I’m used to. It honestly never occurred to me that y’all would, like, actually know each other, which is my own bias.
Thank you for being understanding and I hope this interaction hasn’t soured your experience of this platform 💜
No, absolutely not. By Reddit standards, this was a tiff. Maybe a smaller tussle. Definitely not a kerfluffle.
Besides, part of this is a “me” problem. I’m still adjusting to not having to come out of the gate swinging the first time I sense hostility. Did I respond to an energy? Sure. Did I respond to an intentional energy? …eh, maybe, maybe not. Did I go from 0-100 too fast? Probably. What I’m saying is, I see how I could have handled that better. And the fact that you took the time to engage with me over it is a big positive for the platform.