Look, I love Fight Club. Fight Club is a big step in my process towards becoming less of an asshole. Worked as intended, 10/10, would reconsider my perception of the world again.
But even I can see how, particularly for a time in the 00s and sometimes beyond the examination of toxic masculinity became the iconification of toxic masculinity. It’s not “if they say it’s their favorite film, run”, it’s “man, on the aggegate all of those did the opposite of what they were ostensibly trying to do”.
Never, ever, ever underestimate the ability of the public to miss the point. Any interpretation of media, no matter how obvious and intented, will trigger “you’re just reading too much into it” or “leave your politics out of my movie” comments.
Also, I have terrible news about what your interpretation indicates, because yikes. It’s not that what you’re describing is inaccurate, it’s that “it was cool when it was hardcore, uncut nihilism justifying why the main character is right to be an asshole, and then it sold out” is not looking great for that armchair psychoanalysis you’re inviting.
If your take away from my description of Rick and Morty is that Rick is justified in being a horrible asshole and that he is an good character who in general should be emulated, then uh yikes, you are reading that into what I wrote.
At no point did I state or even insinuate that Rick is some kind of ‘good’ character or role model.
For the record: its at least obvious to me that basically all the characters in Rick and Morty are so flawed that they often do extremely horrible things. Rick in particular is yes a nihlistic asshole, who is at least well enough developed that you can sympathize with him at times, but uh no he is obviously not some kind of role model.
I said the show in general was about brutal unpredictability.
Anyway, you managed to completely miss the point of what I said, and basically just bemoan that Fight Club got adopted by idiot chuds with a misinterpretation that justifies their worldview.
The person I am responding to gave a supposed quote from Tumblr saying ‘run if people have one of these movies as their favorite’ and my point was ‘thats reductive and superficial and impersonal, why not just ask them /why/ its their favorite movie?’
Then you come in and say that actually, what other fandoms did to the movies is so bad that it means the supposed Tumblr overgeneralization is in fact correct…
… which simply ignores my point that if you are trying to judge a person based on a favorite movie, you could actually be personable and ask them why.
The whole point I am making is that you shouldnt judge a book by its cover, and that there are legitimate reasons to have Fight Club as a favorite movie that do not mean a person is a chud, if only you would have a genuine conversation with another person to learn more about them.
But here you are, putting words in my mouth and shaming me for them on the one hand, and then just totally talking around my main point on the other hand.
It’s tumblr. They use hyperbole. They’re not literally saying you should run a mile, just that it’s a potential red flag and worth using appropriate caution before declaring that you’ve made a new best friend, e.g. by asking what the person likes about the piece of media, just as you suggested. Some tumblr users will inevitably end up taking the post at face value, just as you did, but they’re a tiny minority and not worth fussing about. Most will be frequent tumblr users who know half the posts they see are ludicrous exaggerations of the points they’re actually making, and to scale anything back before taking it as life advice.
Ah, so tumblr is full of hyperbolic comments, thus whatever you personally take away is the correct interpretation, and most users just know not to take much seriously, because most of what is posted there doesnt actually mean anything.
Sounds like a wonderful place full of stable people and very insightful discussion.
Nothing more intellectually engaging than ‘actually this thing i said doesnt mean what it literally means, and instead means a watered down version of it, i was just being dramatic to get attention, and you are actually foolish for taking anything i say seriously.’
Cool, still doesnt invalidate my criticism of the actual words that were said, but that doesnt matter to TumblrBrains, because its really all about building a community based on shaming outsiders for taking anything said on Tumblr seriously.
Well, from the text. Of the show, not the post. I mean from the show.
Arguably the whole ethos of early Rick and Morty is the infamous “nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody’s gonna die, come watch TV” speech. If you’re here to tell me that’s your jam and you think when it strayed into having a moral stance on being an asshole is when it started going downhill I’m gonna infer some stuff.
That speech is not given by Rick. It’s given by Morty. If you’re gonna do the textual analysis thing, that’s a key difference. The show acknowledges Rick is messed up, but Morty is supposedly the normie trying to get by and he uses that particular turn of phrase to comfort Summer, who at that point is coping with the fact her family is dead and replaced by transdimensional dopplegangers. Randomly, as the OP says.
So it’s not Rick’s stance, it’s the stance of the show telling us that, at the very least, letting go of reasons and meaning and purpose and indulging on the commonplace while suspending knowledge that the universe is fundamentally pointless helps in coping. That’s the show talking, not the character.
Alright, that’s way too much Rick and Morty analysis for now. If you get it you get it. I don’t need to convince anyone. Because, you know, nobody exists on purpose, and so on and so forth.
Yes, that precise statement is given by Morty after his whole family was killed and replaced by another one, but if you rewatch the scene it’s very clear that he’s definitely not okay! He’s trying to find comfort in behaving and rationalizing like Rick would, but being miserable while doing so anyways. At no point during that scene, or the whole show for that matter, is the message that it’s the correct approach to coping with anything! If anything, only after the characters suffer cathartic moments and let their emotions run free for a bit is when we see some sort of growth and positivity.
So here you just completely admit to doing the very thing I advocated against.
You are not responding to what I said, you are responding to me based on a thing I said I liked, soley based on associations of that thing I like, without actually asking me /why?/
Then you also assumed I believe things, or have opinions or whatever that I do not actually have.
I did not expect an actual example of Tumblr hivemindism to actually manifest when I criticized it.
You have to consider, if only for a moment, that people are going off of context cues here, friend.
Hey, context cues can be deceptive. The Internet is prone to generalizations, and nobody has time to be selective, so a ton of babies go waaaay out of here with a deluge of bathwater. But at the very least seeing people react to what one does online provides… a sense of branding feedback?
People love to make sweeping declarations in social media. It’s all mostly crap, but it’s worth interrogating what one is projecting to make that cut sometimes. And I say this as somebody who gets branded a “reply guy” all the time. Often rightfully so.
Mhm, so you got caught being a hypocrite and are now doing an extremely cringe explanation of how being a hypocrite is normal and fine, while in an anime pose.
My /whole point, from the start/ is that going off context cues alone is not a good idea, especially when trying to have an interpersonal relationship, or considering whether one is worth pursuing.
But you appear to be unable to admit that you completely missed that point, acted like a fool and an asshole, and are now being even more insufferable by basically saying stylish things that only further illustrate that you are a hypocrite.
‘The internet is prone to generalizations’
Mhm, yep, that is not a good thing though. See my /main point/, you know the one you completely missed?
‘Nobody has time to be selective’
And yet here you are, continuing to selectively respond.
‘Branding Feedback’
I suppose that yes I am providing Brand Feedback to Tumblr and its largely insane user base. It was kind of like the opening preamble to my original comment. Is that what triggered you initially to speed read or wilfully misinterpret what I wrote, to describe hardcore Tumblr users as acting as you are now?
‘Social media is full of generalizations but sometimes thats bad’
Again… thats basically my whole main point, from the start.
You have now dropped into third person / impersonal descriptions of the mistakes you have made so as to dissociate yourself from what you have done, seemingly in an attempt to avoid responsibility for your obvious errors.
You /could/ maybe admit you made an embarrassing mistake and give a genuine apology, but instead you appear to be basically doing a really bad attempt of gaslighting me into somehow both forgetting /my main point this whole time/ and also offering it as an excuse for your behavior, in an extremely dramatic and pretentious manner, while pretending to be an anime character.
Uh… ok then. So you have checked off a bunch of the boxes I initially set out that describe TumblrBrain. I guess uh have fun living in your little personal anime fan fic universe.
At this point, any one who reads this whole thread may agree with me when I say that perhaps knowing that a person spends way too much time on Tumblr should be seen as a red flag and you may want to reconsider being their friend or partner, as here we have an example of what is presumably a TumblrAddict being manipulative, hypocritical, gaslighting, being unable to admit or take responsibility for an obvious fault of their own, who retreats into a strange kind of alternate personality when cognitive dissonance becomes to much to bare.
I have not been in Tumblr since… what, 2010? I don’t think I’ve ever posted anything on Tumblr.
But then again, you’ve had a whole argument against a made up person, so why stop now?
Also, you may want to re-read my post, because you got hung up on the anime character pose joke… and you didn’t get what (specifically: who) the anime pose joke was about.
I don’t know who hurt you on Tumblr, bud, but it may be time to let go. In any case, since you don’t need me to have this conversation at all, you can carry on by yourself, I’m sure.
But even I can see how, particularly for a time in the 00s and sometimes beyond the examination of toxic masculinity became the iconification of toxic masculinity. It’s not “if they say it’s their favorite film, run”, it’s “man, on the aggegate all of those did the opposite of what they were ostensibly trying to do”.
Never, ever, ever underestimate the ability of the public to miss the point. Any interpretation of media, no matter how obvious and intented, will trigger “you’re just reading too much into it” or “leave your politics out of my movie” comments.
I guess I don’t see why mass misinterpretation needs to be the final word on a film’s cultural impact (and/or moral value). Times change, people change, and ideas change, but the movie and the message of its creators is still there.
Sure, it’s not like it was an intended result, but it’s still a valid critique of the period and the movement. It doesn’t have to be the “final word”, but it’s definitely A word. Some of the cultural impact was absolutely the opposite of what it intended, that’s a fair observation. I think Palahniuk, particularly after he came out, has addressed that pretty head-on (see below), but also with much less social repercusion.
I also don’t think it’s a moral assessment of the film or the book or their authors, though. It’s a read on the audience, for sure. I think it’s valid to point out that if one is unironically on board with good ole Tyler Durden that’s… you know, a pretty big red flag right there? Not for the movie, but for the individual audience member.
I swear to Crom, online edgelords have been having an argument with an entirely imagined adversary for decades now, and I’m old enough to remember being one of them and getting over it. Frankly, the retroactive shame hurts my feefees so, so much more than any piece of media I’ve ever watched, played, read or listened to.
But also, having grown up as a kid in the media wild west of the 80s the idea of “only liking safe art” is absolutely hilarious.
Look, I love Fight Club. Fight Club is a big step in my process towards becoming less of an asshole. Worked as intended, 10/10, would reconsider my perception of the world again.
But even I can see how, particularly for a time in the 00s and sometimes beyond the examination of toxic masculinity became the iconification of toxic masculinity. It’s not “if they say it’s their favorite film, run”, it’s “man, on the aggegate all of those did the opposite of what they were ostensibly trying to do”.
Never, ever, ever underestimate the ability of the public to miss the point. Any interpretation of media, no matter how obvious and intented, will trigger “you’re just reading too much into it” or “leave your politics out of my movie” comments.
Also, I have terrible news about what your interpretation indicates, because yikes. It’s not that what you’re describing is inaccurate, it’s that “it was cool when it was hardcore, uncut nihilism justifying why the main character is right to be an asshole, and then it sold out” is not looking great for that armchair psychoanalysis you’re inviting.
If your take away from my description of Rick and Morty is that Rick is justified in being a horrible asshole and that he is an good character who in general should be emulated, then uh yikes, you are reading that into what I wrote.
At no point did I state or even insinuate that Rick is some kind of ‘good’ character or role model.
For the record: its at least obvious to me that basically all the characters in Rick and Morty are so flawed that they often do extremely horrible things. Rick in particular is yes a nihlistic asshole, who is at least well enough developed that you can sympathize with him at times, but uh no he is obviously not some kind of role model.
I said the show in general was about brutal unpredictability.
Anyway, you managed to completely miss the point of what I said, and basically just bemoan that Fight Club got adopted by idiot chuds with a misinterpretation that justifies their worldview.
The person I am responding to gave a supposed quote from Tumblr saying ‘run if people have one of these movies as their favorite’ and my point was ‘thats reductive and superficial and impersonal, why not just ask them /why/ its their favorite movie?’
Then you come in and say that actually, what other fandoms did to the movies is so bad that it means the supposed Tumblr overgeneralization is in fact correct…
… which simply ignores my point that if you are trying to judge a person based on a favorite movie, you could actually be personable and ask them why.
The whole point I am making is that you shouldnt judge a book by its cover, and that there are legitimate reasons to have Fight Club as a favorite movie that do not mean a person is a chud, if only you would have a genuine conversation with another person to learn more about them.
But here you are, putting words in my mouth and shaming me for them on the one hand, and then just totally talking around my main point on the other hand.
You know, like a stereotypical Tumblrina.
It’s tumblr. They use hyperbole. They’re not literally saying you should run a mile, just that it’s a potential red flag and worth using appropriate caution before declaring that you’ve made a new best friend, e.g. by asking what the person likes about the piece of media, just as you suggested. Some tumblr users will inevitably end up taking the post at face value, just as you did, but they’re a tiny minority and not worth fussing about. Most will be frequent tumblr users who know half the posts they see are ludicrous exaggerations of the points they’re actually making, and to scale anything back before taking it as life advice.
Ah, so tumblr is full of hyperbolic comments, thus whatever you personally take away is the correct interpretation, and most users just know not to take much seriously, because most of what is posted there doesnt actually mean anything.
Sounds like a wonderful place full of stable people and very insightful discussion.
Nothing more intellectually engaging than ‘actually this thing i said doesnt mean what it literally means, and instead means a watered down version of it, i was just being dramatic to get attention, and you are actually foolish for taking anything i say seriously.’
Cool, still doesnt invalidate my criticism of the actual words that were said, but that doesnt matter to TumblrBrains, because its really all about building a community based on shaming outsiders for taking anything said on Tumblr seriously.
Very edgy!
I’m curious where you read the part “justifying the main character to be an asshole”?
Well, from the text. Of the show, not the post. I mean from the show.
Arguably the whole ethos of early Rick and Morty is the infamous “nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody’s gonna die, come watch TV” speech. If you’re here to tell me that’s your jam and you think when it strayed into having a moral stance on being an asshole is when it started going downhill I’m gonna infer some stuff.
I may not be right, but I’m gonna infer it.
You’re assuming that because the main character of the show has that moral stance, that the show is promoting it?
That’s exactly what isn’t happening and what this whole discussion is about.
The show goes to great lengths to actually show how miserable Rick’s life is precisely because of that!
Nope, I specifically am not.
That speech is not given by Rick. It’s given by Morty. If you’re gonna do the textual analysis thing, that’s a key difference. The show acknowledges Rick is messed up, but Morty is supposedly the normie trying to get by and he uses that particular turn of phrase to comfort Summer, who at that point is coping with the fact her family is dead and replaced by transdimensional dopplegangers. Randomly, as the OP says.
So it’s not Rick’s stance, it’s the stance of the show telling us that, at the very least, letting go of reasons and meaning and purpose and indulging on the commonplace while suspending knowledge that the universe is fundamentally pointless helps in coping. That’s the show talking, not the character.
Alright, that’s way too much Rick and Morty analysis for now. If you get it you get it. I don’t need to convince anyone. Because, you know, nobody exists on purpose, and so on and so forth.
Yes, that precise statement is given by Morty after his whole family was killed and replaced by another one, but if you rewatch the scene it’s very clear that he’s definitely not okay! He’s trying to find comfort in behaving and rationalizing like Rick would, but being miserable while doing so anyways. At no point during that scene, or the whole show for that matter, is the message that it’s the correct approach to coping with anything! If anything, only after the characters suffer cathartic moments and let their emotions run free for a bit is when we see some sort of growth and positivity.
The show had a moral stance on being an asshole the whole time. I’ve got to be honest, did you actually read the other user’s comment or just skim it?
Did you read mine, or “just skim it”?
So here you just completely admit to doing the very thing I advocated against.
You are not responding to what I said, you are responding to me based on a thing I said I liked, soley based on associations of that thing I like, without actually asking me /why?/
Then you also assumed I believe things, or have opinions or whatever that I do not actually have.
I did not expect an actual example of Tumblr hivemindism to actually manifest when I criticized it.
Remarkable.
Ah, yes (raises glasses) (strikes anime pose)… remarkable.
You have to consider, if only for a moment, that people are going off of context cues here, friend.
Hey, context cues can be deceptive. The Internet is prone to generalizations, and nobody has time to be selective, so a ton of babies go waaaay out of here with a deluge of bathwater. But at the very least seeing people react to what one does online provides… a sense of branding feedback?
People love to make sweeping declarations in social media. It’s all mostly crap, but it’s worth interrogating what one is projecting to make that cut sometimes. And I say this as somebody who gets branded a “reply guy” all the time. Often rightfully so.
Mhm, so you got caught being a hypocrite and are now doing an extremely cringe explanation of how being a hypocrite is normal and fine, while in an anime pose.
My /whole point, from the start/ is that going off context cues alone is not a good idea, especially when trying to have an interpersonal relationship, or considering whether one is worth pursuing.
But you appear to be unable to admit that you completely missed that point, acted like a fool and an asshole, and are now being even more insufferable by basically saying stylish things that only further illustrate that you are a hypocrite.
‘The internet is prone to generalizations’
Mhm, yep, that is not a good thing though. See my /main point/, you know the one you completely missed?
‘Nobody has time to be selective’
And yet here you are, continuing to selectively respond.
‘Branding Feedback’
I suppose that yes I am providing Brand Feedback to Tumblr and its largely insane user base. It was kind of like the opening preamble to my original comment. Is that what triggered you initially to speed read or wilfully misinterpret what I wrote, to describe hardcore Tumblr users as acting as you are now?
‘Social media is full of generalizations but sometimes thats bad’
Again… thats basically my whole main point, from the start.
You have now dropped into third person / impersonal descriptions of the mistakes you have made so as to dissociate yourself from what you have done, seemingly in an attempt to avoid responsibility for your obvious errors.
You /could/ maybe admit you made an embarrassing mistake and give a genuine apology, but instead you appear to be basically doing a really bad attempt of gaslighting me into somehow both forgetting /my main point this whole time/ and also offering it as an excuse for your behavior, in an extremely dramatic and pretentious manner, while pretending to be an anime character.
Uh… ok then. So you have checked off a bunch of the boxes I initially set out that describe TumblrBrain. I guess uh have fun living in your little personal anime fan fic universe.
At this point, any one who reads this whole thread may agree with me when I say that perhaps knowing that a person spends way too much time on Tumblr should be seen as a red flag and you may want to reconsider being their friend or partner, as here we have an example of what is presumably a TumblrAddict being manipulative, hypocritical, gaslighting, being unable to admit or take responsibility for an obvious fault of their own, who retreats into a strange kind of alternate personality when cognitive dissonance becomes to much to bare.
I have not been in Tumblr since… what, 2010? I don’t think I’ve ever posted anything on Tumblr.
But then again, you’ve had a whole argument against a made up person, so why stop now?
Also, you may want to re-read my post, because you got hung up on the anime character pose joke… and you didn’t get what (specifically: who) the anime pose joke was about.
I don’t know who hurt you on Tumblr, bud, but it may be time to let go. In any case, since you don’t need me to have this conversation at all, you can carry on by yourself, I’m sure.
I guess I don’t see why mass misinterpretation needs to be the final word on a film’s cultural impact (and/or moral value). Times change, people change, and ideas change, but the movie and the message of its creators is still there.
Sure, it’s not like it was an intended result, but it’s still a valid critique of the period and the movement. It doesn’t have to be the “final word”, but it’s definitely A word. Some of the cultural impact was absolutely the opposite of what it intended, that’s a fair observation. I think Palahniuk, particularly after he came out, has addressed that pretty head-on (see below), but also with much less social repercusion.
I also don’t think it’s a moral assessment of the film or the book or their authors, though. It’s a read on the audience, for sure. I think it’s valid to point out that if one is unironically on board with good ole Tyler Durden that’s… you know, a pretty big red flag right there? Not for the movie, but for the individual audience member.
Yikes to your last paragraph which says “I only like media that doesnt hurt my feefees or make me think”.
…
Does it?
I think I would remember typing “feefees”.
I swear to Crom, online edgelords have been having an argument with an entirely imagined adversary for decades now, and I’m old enough to remember being one of them and getting over it. Frankly, the retroactive shame hurts my feefees so, so much more than any piece of media I’ve ever watched, played, read or listened to.
But also, having grown up as a kid in the media wild west of the 80s the idea of “only liking safe art” is absolutely hilarious.