It’s an act of defense against an occupying power that slaughters them when they try unarmed peaceful resistance. Remember two years ago? I do.
I’m also done interacting with someone who continues to ignore the 8000 dead children in two months because they know that that is morally indefensible.
The situation with the Palestinians in Gaza is very tragic and sad. At no point did I ignore it. War is horrible and especially when Hamas embeds itself inside the civilian population, people get hurt and it’s very sad.
I think that you, however, are completely oblivious to the suffering on the other side. There are still little children held hostage in the tunnels under Gaza. Call it resistance, freedom fighting as much as you want. It’s no less tragic.
Even though Hamas started this round, the question of who started it is irrelevant. The relevant question is how does it end. No side is willing to make any compromise and I fear this will go on for years still.
War is horrible and especially when Hamas embeds itself inside the civilian population, people get hurt and it’s very sad.
War is horrible and especially when Israel embeds itself inside the civilian population, killing everyone and anyone, going into a hospital to shoot people or sniping doctors from outside, people get hurt and it’s very sad.
Israel makes mistakes and have very bad policies. I am the last one to defend it.
However, IDF is not a murderous organization as you think of it. There are clear rules on how to engage in combat and strict written moral rules that everyone should follow. I know because I served there and was taught these rules and had to memorize
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Code_of_Ethics
However, people are people. There are bad apples. People also just make mistakes and Israel has (too) many different opinions and fragments and ideologies that I have nothing in common with. So yeah it’s complicated.
Your view of Israel as one murderous genocidal entity is not different from the view a lot of Israelis have of the Palestinians, especially after October 7th, that is sad and will not bring the conflict anywhere to an end
I would recommend you check out some testimonies from IDF soldiers from Breaking the Silence. You can see more of their rules of engagement like “Kill anyone who moves” or “break into people’s homes, stay ok their roof for 16 hours, cut off the water, and assault them if they resist”
I know “Shovrim Shtika”. They are doing important work.
Like I said, there are bad apples and bad things are being done.
But it’s not everyone. And not even the majority.
When I was serving, I have never encountered a situation where any of my team members did anything like that. But I know these things exist.
In most of the cases I heard of, these things were taken very seriously inside the IDF and people were kicked out and sentenced.
Unfortunately, occupation is corrupting the soul and in recent years the cases have grown in numbers. Add to that the horrible government Israel currently has and you get a shit show.
IDF does systemic abuse and torture of Palestinians
You: there are bad apples and bad things are being done.
LOL, bad apples. Nope. It’s systemic, whether you like it or not.
I’m glad you didn’t see any of this “crap” while serving, but I highly doubt it’s not “widespread”.
There have been too many incidents of dead journalists where the IDF just denied and denied and denied until the truth came out, as usual.
I’m really sorry to know that young people are brought to join this death and apartheid machine. No one should serve in the army at 18 against their will.
That being said… don’t let your personal experience cloud your judgment. Don’t let it prevent you from seeing the systemic abuse happening, that many of your colleagues probably did, and continue to do, and are doing right now.
All I was trying to convince you is that Israel is not all evil. I can give you countless examples where Palestinians have been treated very well by Israel and by IDF soldiers.
I don’t blame you for your haitred. It’s a product of your experience. I wish you all the well and that you will find peace one day (all of us).
Hamas doesn’t embed itself. It IS the government. Everyone says Hamas and people think of the Hamas soldiers.
The health organizations that counted the dead while there still were hospitals? Hamas. However, that Hamas pencil pusher that has never picked up a gun will still have his apartment blown up because he is ‘Hamas’. It’s like complaining the DMV clerk is a marine because they’re both part of the American government.
And yes, war is terrible. It’s why after ww2 most of the nations agreed certain things were wrong and not allowed in war. You know, the things Israel is doing. The things that we’ve been blasting Russia for doing in Ukraine with words like ‘genocide’ and ‘war crimes’. Things like collective punishment, intentional targeting of civilian populations, using white phosphorus against civilians, intentionally starving civilians, intentionally depriving civilians under your control of water. These are all war crimes.
I’m not oblivious to the suffering. I have as much sympathy for them as I do for visitors to a slave plantation caught up in a slave uprising. Which is to say, some, but not too much. The blame should lay on the family that took their children to a plantation, knowing it was a plantation.
There is no moral standard that allows you to denounce Hamas, and yet praise the ANC during apartheid south Africa, or Nat Turners uprising, or John Brown at Harpers Ferry.
This is simple. It isn’t complex. You would have been on the side of apartheid south Africa because of the necklacing that the ANC did. You would have denounced the ickiness of John Browns attempts to stop slavery because he was just too violent. You would have denounced the Easter uprising, because it was too uncivil and the British were just there to civilize the Irish. I have no respect for people that justify apartheid or colonial oppression because the person struggling with a boot on their throat is too unseemly.
There is no compromise with someone standing on your throat. They need to remove their fucking foot before a discussion can even start.
This will go on for awhile, but Oct. 7th killed the myth of Israeli invincibility forever. The subsequent slaughter of civilians by the IDF, and all of the despicable lies about decapitated babies had killed Israels international reputation. Some things like Ethnic Cleansing are a bit too much to cover up.
P.S. the ADL spied on black anti apartheid activists in America for Israel on behalf of apartheid South Africa. It almost got the ADL banned in America. Israel was extremely friendly with Apartheid South Africa, even as most of the world was boycotting them, because Israel even then recognized that it was also an apartheid country. Oh, and South Africa let them test their nukes of the coastline.
Then according to your same logic, it is a genocidal government as well, as they murdered 1200 people in few hours.
Hamas doesn’t embed itself
Thier fighters are fighting from within the population. It’s by design, and there’s evidence that they prevent the innocent population from fleeing the war zone even by shooting people who try to flee.
I have as much sympathy for them as I do for visitors to a slave plantation caught up in a slave uprising. Which is to say, some, but not too much. The blame should lay on the family that took their children to a plantation, knowing it was a plantation.
This analogy makes me understand that you see no legitimacy what so ever for the existence of the state of Israel, or Jews in that land, no matter on which borders.
I won’t go into the history of Jews in the land of Israel as I don’t think it will convince you with anything. You think of Jews as a colonial (white) power occupying a foreign land. Let’s agree to disagree.
That is not the same logic at all. Attempted genocide or ethnic cleansing is based on the actions, not the speed of casualties.
900-1000 dead in a couple of hours just speaks to the utter incompetence (and sexism since the female signals analysis divisions were ignored while screaming something was going on) of the IOF. I also won’t count the Israelis that died due to the IOF’s invocation of the Hannibal directive. Israeli’s killed by Apache hellfire were not killed by Hamas.
Things like destroying good, water and power for the entire population indicate genocide. Being successful against an incompetent enemy, does not.
There are indications that Hamas fighters where not aware of the festival, and clear video evidence that Israeli soldiers (or security guards who were reservists, who count as military in my mind, since the IOF is willing to count every pencil pusher as a Hamas militant) engaged with the Al-Quds brigades from the crowds. I.e using the crowd as human shields in a far more literal sense then Israelis always apply to the Palestinians.
There is also video evidence of the stripped Palestinian men being led before IOF units in Gaza as human shields. Just like in Operation Cast Lead. And there are reports, though no video evidence, yet, of stripped Palestinian men being forced into the tunnel systems as human shields.
You know what isn’t using human shields? Existing as a militant force in the most densely populated place on earth.
You don’t get to force people into a bantustan then accuse the people fighting back as using human shields.
Finally, stop putting words in my mouth. Palestinian Jewish people exist, (and were treated as Palestinians, rather than Jewish people, but that is neither here nor there) as do children of the original Western European Jewish colonists. And yes, Zionists were colonists. That is literally what they called themselves when selling the idea of Zionism to antisemitic Europeans in search of financial backing. And yes, the Zionists were racist as well, even against other Jewish people. Tell me again, and don’t ignore this part, how are/were the Beta Israeli’s treated?
I shouldn’t have compared Israel to a plantation, you’re right. I should have compared it to a bantustan, because it is an apartheid society. Israel doesn’t use Palestinians as chattel slaves, it uses them (or did before importing people from other countries) as cheap, second class labor.
As such, the children born of Zionist parents belong there as much as white South Africans born in South Africa belonged in South Africa. The solution, since Israel intentionally made a two state solution impossible with the west bank settlements, is a single state with a massive truth and reconciliation process with war crimes trials for all that committed them, Palestinian and Israeli alike, with citizenship and equal rights for all.
Anything else is simply trying to justify maintaining apartheid.
Never Again meant Never Again. No qualifications or exceptions. Do you agree with that? Can we agree with that, or do you think never again only applied to Zionists?
It’s an act of defense against an occupying power that slaughters them when they try unarmed peaceful resistance. Remember two years ago? I do.
I’m also done interacting with someone who continues to ignore the 8000 dead children in two months because they know that that is morally indefensible.
The situation with the Palestinians in Gaza is very tragic and sad. At no point did I ignore it. War is horrible and especially when Hamas embeds itself inside the civilian population, people get hurt and it’s very sad.
I think that you, however, are completely oblivious to the suffering on the other side. There are still little children held hostage in the tunnels under Gaza. Call it resistance, freedom fighting as much as you want. It’s no less tragic.
Even though Hamas started this round, the question of who started it is irrelevant. The relevant question is how does it end. No side is willing to make any compromise and I fear this will go on for years still.
War is horrible and especially when Israel embeds itself inside the civilian population, killing everyone and anyone, going into a hospital to shoot people or sniping doctors from outside, people get hurt and it’s very sad.
Israel makes mistakes and have very bad policies. I am the last one to defend it.
However, IDF is not a murderous organization as you think of it. There are clear rules on how to engage in combat and strict written moral rules that everyone should follow. I know because I served there and was taught these rules and had to memorize https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF_Code_of_Ethics
However, people are people. There are bad apples. People also just make mistakes and Israel has (too) many different opinions and fragments and ideologies that I have nothing in common with. So yeah it’s complicated.
Your view of Israel as one murderous genocidal entity is not different from the view a lot of Israelis have of the Palestinians, especially after October 7th, that is sad and will not bring the conflict anywhere to an end
I would recommend you check out some testimonies from IDF soldiers from Breaking the Silence. You can see more of their rules of engagement like “Kill anyone who moves” or “break into people’s homes, stay ok their roof for 16 hours, cut off the water, and assault them if they resist”
I know “Shovrim Shtika”. They are doing important work.
Like I said, there are bad apples and bad things are being done.
But it’s not everyone. And not even the majority.
When I was serving, I have never encountered a situation where any of my team members did anything like that. But I know these things exist. In most of the cases I heard of, these things were taken very seriously inside the IDF and people were kicked out and sentenced.
Unfortunately, occupation is corrupting the soul and in recent years the cases have grown in numbers. Add to that the horrible government Israel currently has and you get a shit show.
IDF does systemic abuse and torture of Palestinians
You: there are bad apples and bad things are being done.
LOL, bad apples. Nope. It’s systemic, whether you like it or not. I’m glad you didn’t see any of this “crap” while serving, but I highly doubt it’s not “widespread”.
There have been too many incidents of dead journalists where the IDF just denied and denied and denied until the truth came out, as usual.
I’m really sorry to know that young people are brought to join this death and apartheid machine. No one should serve in the army at 18 against their will.
That being said… don’t let your personal experience cloud your judgment. Don’t let it prevent you from seeing the systemic abuse happening, that many of your colleagues probably did, and continue to do, and are doing right now.
You have a very dichotomous view of this subject.
All I was trying to convince you is that Israel is not all evil. I can give you countless examples where Palestinians have been treated very well by Israel and by IDF soldiers.
I don’t blame you for your haitred. It’s a product of your experience. I wish you all the well and that you will find peace one day (all of us).
some odd good treatment does not mean that systemic abuse is not present.
I would recommend BTselem and the tens of other organizations documenting the systemic abuse of Israel.
I don’t blame you for your ignorance. It’s a product of your experience.
Hamas doesn’t embed itself. It IS the government. Everyone says Hamas and people think of the Hamas soldiers.
The health organizations that counted the dead while there still were hospitals? Hamas. However, that Hamas pencil pusher that has never picked up a gun will still have his apartment blown up because he is ‘Hamas’. It’s like complaining the DMV clerk is a marine because they’re both part of the American government.
And yes, war is terrible. It’s why after ww2 most of the nations agreed certain things were wrong and not allowed in war. You know, the things Israel is doing. The things that we’ve been blasting Russia for doing in Ukraine with words like ‘genocide’ and ‘war crimes’. Things like collective punishment, intentional targeting of civilian populations, using white phosphorus against civilians, intentionally starving civilians, intentionally depriving civilians under your control of water. These are all war crimes.
I’m not oblivious to the suffering. I have as much sympathy for them as I do for visitors to a slave plantation caught up in a slave uprising. Which is to say, some, but not too much. The blame should lay on the family that took their children to a plantation, knowing it was a plantation.
There is no moral standard that allows you to denounce Hamas, and yet praise the ANC during apartheid south Africa, or Nat Turners uprising, or John Brown at Harpers Ferry.
This is simple. It isn’t complex. You would have been on the side of apartheid south Africa because of the necklacing that the ANC did. You would have denounced the ickiness of John Browns attempts to stop slavery because he was just too violent. You would have denounced the Easter uprising, because it was too uncivil and the British were just there to civilize the Irish. I have no respect for people that justify apartheid or colonial oppression because the person struggling with a boot on their throat is too unseemly.
There is no compromise with someone standing on your throat. They need to remove their fucking foot before a discussion can even start.
This will go on for awhile, but Oct. 7th killed the myth of Israeli invincibility forever. The subsequent slaughter of civilians by the IDF, and all of the despicable lies about decapitated babies had killed Israels international reputation. Some things like Ethnic Cleansing are a bit too much to cover up.
P.S. the ADL spied on black anti apartheid activists in America for Israel on behalf of apartheid South Africa. It almost got the ADL banned in America. Israel was extremely friendly with Apartheid South Africa, even as most of the world was boycotting them, because Israel even then recognized that it was also an apartheid country. Oh, and South Africa let them test their nukes of the coastline.
Then according to your same logic, it is a genocidal government as well, as they murdered 1200 people in few hours.
Thier fighters are fighting from within the population. It’s by design, and there’s evidence that they prevent the innocent population from fleeing the war zone even by shooting people who try to flee.
This analogy makes me understand that you see no legitimacy what so ever for the existence of the state of Israel, or Jews in that land, no matter on which borders.
I won’t go into the history of Jews in the land of Israel as I don’t think it will convince you with anything. You think of Jews as a colonial (white) power occupying a foreign land. Let’s agree to disagree.
What do you think genocide means? 🤔 Can you define it?
That is not the same logic at all. Attempted genocide or ethnic cleansing is based on the actions, not the speed of casualties.
900-1000 dead in a couple of hours just speaks to the utter incompetence (and sexism since the female signals analysis divisions were ignored while screaming something was going on) of the IOF. I also won’t count the Israelis that died due to the IOF’s invocation of the Hannibal directive. Israeli’s killed by Apache hellfire were not killed by Hamas.
Things like destroying good, water and power for the entire population indicate genocide. Being successful against an incompetent enemy, does not.
There are indications that Hamas fighters where not aware of the festival, and clear video evidence that Israeli soldiers (or security guards who were reservists, who count as military in my mind, since the IOF is willing to count every pencil pusher as a Hamas militant) engaged with the Al-Quds brigades from the crowds. I.e using the crowd as human shields in a far more literal sense then Israelis always apply to the Palestinians.
There is also video evidence of the stripped Palestinian men being led before IOF units in Gaza as human shields. Just like in Operation Cast Lead. And there are reports, though no video evidence, yet, of stripped Palestinian men being forced into the tunnel systems as human shields.
You know what isn’t using human shields? Existing as a militant force in the most densely populated place on earth.
You don’t get to force people into a bantustan then accuse the people fighting back as using human shields.
Finally, stop putting words in my mouth. Palestinian Jewish people exist, (and were treated as Palestinians, rather than Jewish people, but that is neither here nor there) as do children of the original Western European Jewish colonists. And yes, Zionists were colonists. That is literally what they called themselves when selling the idea of Zionism to antisemitic Europeans in search of financial backing. And yes, the Zionists were racist as well, even against other Jewish people. Tell me again, and don’t ignore this part, how are/were the Beta Israeli’s treated?
I shouldn’t have compared Israel to a plantation, you’re right. I should have compared it to a bantustan, because it is an apartheid society. Israel doesn’t use Palestinians as chattel slaves, it uses them (or did before importing people from other countries) as cheap, second class labor.
As such, the children born of Zionist parents belong there as much as white South Africans born in South Africa belonged in South Africa. The solution, since Israel intentionally made a two state solution impossible with the west bank settlements, is a single state with a massive truth and reconciliation process with war crimes trials for all that committed them, Palestinian and Israeli alike, with citizenship and equal rights for all.
Anything else is simply trying to justify maintaining apartheid.
Never Again meant Never Again. No qualifications or exceptions. Do you agree with that? Can we agree with that, or do you think never again only applied to Zionists?