You ask good questions, but if you’re really interested you can look into Christian apologetics re: free will. There are some interesting answers awaiting you. But the gist of it is that God didn’t create flawed beings, he created beings with free will that chose to be flawed.
And Christianity has never said free will is a flawed design, because humans having free will is one of the most important aspects of the religion and is very fundamental to what it means to be a human (a concept that is true both in and outside of Christianity, unless you believe in destiny or something). It is not a flaw to have free will, otherwise God himself would be flawed. In a regular context, it’s kind of like you’re not flawed for existing, but you’re flawed if you do negative things with your existence. I would personally have to be convinced that having free will is a flaw/a negative thing
To quickly answer your first couple questions: death is the punishment for sinning and Jesus is supposed to be perfect and sinless and thus should not die. but instead he died in place of other sinners, kind of like taking the blame for them. And yes, torturing and killing the son of God was indeed a sin, the people who did it were sinful. I don’t think anyone has said otherwise. The ones who killed Jesus were not his followers or supporters
i’m giving you free will
now i’m punishing you for making the choice i didn’t like
but seriously, i do appreciate your well-written comment - it’s just that it all gets very tiresome. i have been listening to/reading the apologetics and arguments, getting invited, prayed and ranted at. i have been nodding my head politely, smiling awkwardly, and dodging questions for a great many years, when really i just want to do my own thing and be left in peace with it (without words like “sinner” and “evil” getting tossed around).
I mean, even in a society you have free will and get punished for not confirming to it? Do you think societies as a whole with laws and rules are tiresome and you don’t want words like “criminal” tossed around? Are you going to just leave society and not live in community with others?
You can do your own thing for sure. But everyone, even people who believe and are Christian, are sinners. Literally everyone is a sinner. You can still be at peace with your own thing anyway, even in a religious context. Christians find peace while admitting to being sinners. I’m not saying you need to, you’re totally free to do your own thing. I’m just explaining things really
let me put it this way - it seemed to me that you were interested in explaining your perspective, as if simply offering information to contribute to a greater understanding. when someone expressed their disinterest in your explanation or indicated they did not find it sufficient, it seemed to me as if you were quickly negative. i was left with the impression that you are fundamentally less interested in dialogue and understanding, and more interested in convincing.
this is very typical of conversation with christians in a my 40+ year experience as a non-christian living in the bible belt. i tire of the efforts to explain christianity, when i have, in fact, heard it so extensively for so long. i tire of the conversations that are not REALLY intended to explain, but to solicit agreement and convert.
in other words - i wish more christians recognized that it may not be that non-christians don’t understand your faith, they may simply not agree and not want to hear about it again. and approaching them as if you are interested in dialogue when you really want to convince them feels disingenuous.
these were my thoughts when i read your conversation with the other user above.
So… these are excellent questions and I’m afraid I personally can’t answer all of them since I’m not that knowledgeable here. But I do believe people smarter than I have come up with better answers than I will give too. I’m afraid I don’t understand your question regarding original sin being forgiven. I’ll try to answer the rest from my experiences, though
So think of it this way: if God created humans to have free will, this means they can choose to be bad. You may be asking, why would God create a world where bad can exist? Doesn’t that seem flawed? But if God were to create a world where bad can’t exist, then humans wouldn’t have true free will. God didn’t create the world with bad things in it, he created the world as good (in Genesis, the first chapter of the bible, he continually says “it is good” after everything he creates.)
So God creates the world as good and put humans with free will into the world. And because they have true free will, they also have the choice of making the world bad, which is what ended up happening. The pint is, “Bad” as a concept must exist in order for there to be true free will
So if bad can exist, then logically there has to be consequences for bad things. Otherwise it’s not bad. If there are no consequences it can’t be bad, it just doesn’t make any sense. So sinning, which is the bad we’ve been talking about, has the consequence of death. I hope that kind of answers the question of “why do people have to be punished for sins”
Humans were not intended to be ignorant, and they were already intelligent. They just didn’t have specific knowledge. And this is true even to this day. We as humans don’t know everything and we never will. But humans had free will even before they had the knowledge from eating the fruit. They willingly disobeyed God’s instructions before they even ate the fruit. They were already intelligent. I guess in a sense they were designed to be ignorant if by ignorant you mean “does not have unending knowledge about everything in existence”. Then indeed, humans were never designed to have 100% of all the answers. If they did, they would be no different from God. And this is clear even to this day. Not even science can explain everything and we’re always discovering/learning new things. An aside: from here you can kind of see that the bible is pretty accurate about the way it describes humans objectively, from having free will to having gaps in complete knowledge of the universe
God didn’t take anything out on Jesus, but Jesus sacrificed himself for other humans. I’m not sure of the imagery of hell, note that I could be wrong here , but Hell is separation from God, not necessarily a physical torturing session. And this makes sense, when you sin, you go further away from God since you’re disobeying him. And when you disobey someone, that means you don’t trust them. And if you don’t trust them, you’re not getting any closer to them. And hell is just eternal separation from God, which, to a Christian, is the worst thing you can experience if you truly believe God is the greatest gift and biggest form of love you can experience. That’s kind of the gist of it
I couldn’t answer your questions on humans in hell before crucification since I need to sleep now, but I do have some ideas/potential answers. I do think it is a question worth looking into, for both you and I!
I don’t have exact answers for this, but if you look at it as if Adam was indicative of all of mankind (which he was), you can see it less like people are condemned when theyre born but more like all people are inherently broken/flawed/sinners. Original sin was just the first example of it. If there were people out in the world who were objectively flawless and sinless I’d take a totally different stance, but mankind being broken and evil is just pretty consistent with history and with the bible
Christianity doesn’t exactly say it’s a grievous error to be born and that you’re condemned for it, it more says that you’re inherently broken but you can still be redeemed
We can agree to disagree then. You didn’t really explain anything either.
We’re an inherently selfish species from a biological perspective, people aren’t just fundamentally altruistic. If evolution shaped our morals to encourage us to be nice to each other to benefit the whole species, why is it still such a struggle for people to be selfless?
I find it very hard for you to convince me that as a species we are neutral when the very people we put into power and govern over us are narcissists and power hungry people who have little care about every individuals lives that they govern over and are obsessed with self gain.
On an individual level, being altruistic/good natured/selfless is something that has to be fostered and you have to be intentional about. Growing up, we’re taught lessons, in school and in media, etc., on how to be good/how to treat others. We’re taught to do good things and don’t do bad things. Why? Because our nature is to do bad things
If you have to be intentional about being good and not being bad, then that means your default state is being bad. It’s easy to be selfish and only do things that you want and only care about yourself, because that’s our nature as a species.
I don’t agree that we just “are” and that we just “exist”, it just sounds like someone that doesn’t want to face the truth that mankind is not a perfect species. Vague statements like “we can only be as evil as we are good” doesn’t actually mean anything. You just stated a bunch of facts like “death gives life meaning” and “shadow defines light”. Sure. I agree. So what? Nothing that you said really clarified why humans aren’t inherently bad in your eyes. You just said a bunch of generic statements that not even Christians disagree with as if I’m supposed to understand why your position makes sense now
The contrast though is that you don’t “earn” heaven either. Nothing makes a Christian and a non Christian so inherently different from each other that one fundamentally deserves heaven and the other hell. It’s saved by faith, not by works
The notion of being guilty by proxy is mind boggling but it would be/is a good tool to control people through fear, which is essentially most creeds business.
The notion is mind boggling because being guilty by proxy is not how it works anyway. If you could find a 100% objectively guiltless man I’d totally concede that guilt by proxy is how it works, but let’s face it, literally everyone on this earth is not perfect or blameless. You don’t need a proxy to be guilty, everyone already is, its not hard to see when you look at the people in the world
If every man after Adam is guilty by proxy, Jesus would’ve been guilty as well as soon as he was born. But Christianity clearly posits the opposite of that
The guilty by proxy argument predicates that every human being, at the moment of conception, is already guilty of an act onto which said human had no participation on. That is being guilty by simply existing.
We’re are not getting into the argument of nobody being exempt of fault, either by action or lack of it.
The “loop hole” used to exempt JC Sandals of the original son was having him being conceived with no human intervention, therefore, sinless. After all, it is argued he was born of a virgin woman, willed into existence into flesh yet not conceived as any other.
What constitutes a fault? Are we to consider fault only actions or lack thereof taken counciously or any outcome that negatively influences another or anything, even if such outcome arises from an unpredicted(able) steming from an action taken with a good purpose?
The doylist explanation is that a lot of religions back in the day practiced animal sacrifice to their deities (including judaism, e.g. Noah sacrificing animals after the flood and Abraham sacrificing a ram in place of his son once god was bored of telling Abraham to kill his kid to prove his faith). Jesus getting sacrificed is supposed to be a mirror of this for Christians and an “ultimate” sacrifice. They don’t sacrifice animals to god anymore because jesus just keeps doing the heavy lifting for them.
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You ask good questions, but if you’re really interested you can look into Christian apologetics re: free will. There are some interesting answers awaiting you. But the gist of it is that God didn’t create flawed beings, he created beings with free will that chose to be flawed.
And Christianity has never said free will is a flawed design, because humans having free will is one of the most important aspects of the religion and is very fundamental to what it means to be a human (a concept that is true both in and outside of Christianity, unless you believe in destiny or something). It is not a flaw to have free will, otherwise God himself would be flawed. In a regular context, it’s kind of like you’re not flawed for existing, but you’re flawed if you do negative things with your existence. I would personally have to be convinced that having free will is a flaw/a negative thing
To quickly answer your first couple questions: death is the punishment for sinning and Jesus is supposed to be perfect and sinless and thus should not die. but instead he died in place of other sinners, kind of like taking the blame for them. And yes, torturing and killing the son of God was indeed a sin, the people who did it were sinful. I don’t think anyone has said otherwise. The ones who killed Jesus were not his followers or supporters
death-cultsplainin’
Copium
That, too.
Yes sir whatever you say great discussion
i’m giving you free will now i’m punishing you for making the choice i didn’t like
but seriously, i do appreciate your well-written comment - it’s just that it all gets very tiresome. i have been listening to/reading the apologetics and arguments, getting invited, prayed and ranted at. i have been nodding my head politely, smiling awkwardly, and dodging questions for a great many years, when really i just want to do my own thing and be left in peace with it (without words like “sinner” and “evil” getting tossed around).
anyway, that’s just my experience.
I mean, even in a society you have free will and get punished for not confirming to it? Do you think societies as a whole with laws and rules are tiresome and you don’t want words like “criminal” tossed around? Are you going to just leave society and not live in community with others?
You can do your own thing for sure. But everyone, even people who believe and are Christian, are sinners. Literally everyone is a sinner. You can still be at peace with your own thing anyway, even in a religious context. Christians find peace while admitting to being sinners. I’m not saying you need to, you’re totally free to do your own thing. I’m just explaining things really
i think i was too subtle in my statement.
let me put it this way - it seemed to me that you were interested in explaining your perspective, as if simply offering information to contribute to a greater understanding. when someone expressed their disinterest in your explanation or indicated they did not find it sufficient, it seemed to me as if you were quickly negative. i was left with the impression that you are fundamentally less interested in dialogue and understanding, and more interested in convincing.
this is very typical of conversation with christians in a my 40+ year experience as a non-christian living in the bible belt. i tire of the efforts to explain christianity, when i have, in fact, heard it so extensively for so long. i tire of the conversations that are not REALLY intended to explain, but to solicit agreement and convert.
in other words - i wish more christians recognized that it may not be that non-christians don’t understand your faith, they may simply not agree and not want to hear about it again. and approaching them as if you are interested in dialogue when you really want to convince them feels disingenuous.
these were my thoughts when i read your conversation with the other user above.
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So… these are excellent questions and I’m afraid I personally can’t answer all of them since I’m not that knowledgeable here. But I do believe people smarter than I have come up with better answers than I will give too. I’m afraid I don’t understand your question regarding original sin being forgiven. I’ll try to answer the rest from my experiences, though
So think of it this way: if God created humans to have free will, this means they can choose to be bad. You may be asking, why would God create a world where bad can exist? Doesn’t that seem flawed? But if God were to create a world where bad can’t exist, then humans wouldn’t have true free will. God didn’t create the world with bad things in it, he created the world as good (in Genesis, the first chapter of the bible, he continually says “it is good” after everything he creates.)
So God creates the world as good and put humans with free will into the world. And because they have true free will, they also have the choice of making the world bad, which is what ended up happening. The pint is, “Bad” as a concept must exist in order for there to be true free will
So if bad can exist, then logically there has to be consequences for bad things. Otherwise it’s not bad. If there are no consequences it can’t be bad, it just doesn’t make any sense. So sinning, which is the bad we’ve been talking about, has the consequence of death. I hope that kind of answers the question of “why do people have to be punished for sins”
Humans were not intended to be ignorant, and they were already intelligent. They just didn’t have specific knowledge. And this is true even to this day. We as humans don’t know everything and we never will. But humans had free will even before they had the knowledge from eating the fruit. They willingly disobeyed God’s instructions before they even ate the fruit. They were already intelligent. I guess in a sense they were designed to be ignorant if by ignorant you mean “does not have unending knowledge about everything in existence”. Then indeed, humans were never designed to have 100% of all the answers. If they did, they would be no different from God. And this is clear even to this day. Not even science can explain everything and we’re always discovering/learning new things. An aside: from here you can kind of see that the bible is pretty accurate about the way it describes humans objectively, from having free will to having gaps in complete knowledge of the universe
God didn’t take anything out on Jesus, but Jesus sacrificed himself for other humans. I’m not sure of the imagery of hell, note that I could be wrong here , but Hell is separation from God, not necessarily a physical torturing session. And this makes sense, when you sin, you go further away from God since you’re disobeying him. And when you disobey someone, that means you don’t trust them. And if you don’t trust them, you’re not getting any closer to them. And hell is just eternal separation from God, which, to a Christian, is the worst thing you can experience if you truly believe God is the greatest gift and biggest form of love you can experience. That’s kind of the gist of it
I couldn’t answer your questions on humans in hell before crucification since I need to sleep now, but I do have some ideas/potential answers. I do think it is a question worth looking into, for both you and I!
deleted by creator
I don’t have exact answers for this, but if you look at it as if Adam was indicative of all of mankind (which he was), you can see it less like people are condemned when theyre born but more like all people are inherently broken/flawed/sinners. Original sin was just the first example of it. If there were people out in the world who were objectively flawless and sinless I’d take a totally different stance, but mankind being broken and evil is just pretty consistent with history and with the bible
Christianity doesn’t exactly say it’s a grievous error to be born and that you’re condemned for it, it more says that you’re inherently broken but you can still be redeemed
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We can agree to disagree then. You didn’t really explain anything either.
We’re an inherently selfish species from a biological perspective, people aren’t just fundamentally altruistic. If evolution shaped our morals to encourage us to be nice to each other to benefit the whole species, why is it still such a struggle for people to be selfless?
I find it very hard for you to convince me that as a species we are neutral when the very people we put into power and govern over us are narcissists and power hungry people who have little care about every individuals lives that they govern over and are obsessed with self gain.
On an individual level, being altruistic/good natured/selfless is something that has to be fostered and you have to be intentional about. Growing up, we’re taught lessons, in school and in media, etc., on how to be good/how to treat others. We’re taught to do good things and don’t do bad things. Why? Because our nature is to do bad things
If you have to be intentional about being good and not being bad, then that means your default state is being bad. It’s easy to be selfish and only do things that you want and only care about yourself, because that’s our nature as a species.
I don’t agree that we just “are” and that we just “exist”, it just sounds like someone that doesn’t want to face the truth that mankind is not a perfect species. Vague statements like “we can only be as evil as we are good” doesn’t actually mean anything. You just stated a bunch of facts like “death gives life meaning” and “shadow defines light”. Sure. I agree. So what? Nothing that you said really clarified why humans aren’t inherently bad in your eyes. You just said a bunch of generic statements that not even Christians disagree with as if I’m supposed to understand why your position makes sense now
deleted by creator
The contrast though is that you don’t “earn” heaven either. Nothing makes a Christian and a non Christian so inherently different from each other that one fundamentally deserves heaven and the other hell. It’s saved by faith, not by works
The notion of being guilty by proxy is mind boggling but it would be/is a good tool to control people through fear, which is essentially most creeds business.
The notion is mind boggling because being guilty by proxy is not how it works anyway. If you could find a 100% objectively guiltless man I’d totally concede that guilt by proxy is how it works, but let’s face it, literally everyone on this earth is not perfect or blameless. You don’t need a proxy to be guilty, everyone already is, its not hard to see when you look at the people in the world
If every man after Adam is guilty by proxy, Jesus would’ve been guilty as well as soon as he was born. But Christianity clearly posits the opposite of that
Let’s not take that route.
The guilty by proxy argument predicates that every human being, at the moment of conception, is already guilty of an act onto which said human had no participation on. That is being guilty by simply existing.
We’re are not getting into the argument of nobody being exempt of fault, either by action or lack of it.
The “loop hole” used to exempt JC Sandals of the original son was having him being conceived with no human intervention, therefore, sinless. After all, it is argued he was born of a virgin woman, willed into existence into flesh yet not conceived as any other.
You make a really excellent point, and I think I retract what I have posited. But I think nobody being exempt of fault is quite true, no?
The easiest reply would be “it dependends”.
But…
What constitutes a fault? Are we to consider fault only actions or lack thereof taken counciously or any outcome that negatively influences another or anything, even if such outcome arises from an unpredicted(able) steming from an action taken with a good purpose?
Seems he could have anticipated the flaw.
Seems you could have read my comment better
The doylist explanation is that a lot of religions back in the day practiced animal sacrifice to their deities (including judaism, e.g. Noah sacrificing animals after the flood and Abraham sacrificing a ram in place of his son once god was bored of telling Abraham to kill his kid to prove his faith). Jesus getting sacrificed is supposed to be a mirror of this for Christians and an “ultimate” sacrifice. They don’t sacrifice animals to god anymore because jesus just keeps doing the heavy lifting for them.